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radiohead
24 October 2013 10:22:12

Of course there is every chance that this will not develop into anything too severe, but just looking at the Chief Forecaster's assessment, when was the last time there was a storm with "potential for gusts of over 80 mph" hitting southern England?


Quite different from the usual exposed Atlantic coasts that see gusts like that on a more regular basis.

Jive Buddy
24 October 2013 10:23:50


not far from the japs last night


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/jma.php?ech=120&mode=1


japs has done her self proud in front of gm and navgm imo


 


Originally Posted by: Polar Low 


Is that what's known as a "Jap's eye"?


It's not over, until the fat Scandy sinks.....

Location: St. Mary Cray, S.E. London border with Kent.
radiohead
24 October 2013 10:24:52


Dont make sense James does it from there own fax charts at t120 which has human input perhaps thou they want to be careful.


Originally Posted by: Polar Low 


 


The 120 fax is from last night though, before the 0Z runs. The 0Z ECMWF shifted track further north this morning.

Russwirral
24 October 2013 10:33:34


The strength of the wording from the Met Office surprised me this morning:


"A very intense low pressure system is forecast to run northeastwards across the country early on
Monday, bringing the potential for an exceptionally windy spell of weather for southern parts of the
UK. At the same time, persistent, heavy rain could cause some surface water flooding. At this early
stage there is uncertainty about the timing, intensity and track of the low. However, the
public should be prepared for the risk of falling trees as well as damage to buildings and other
structures, bringing disruption to transport and power supplies.



I mean, usually at this range they will avoid phrases like 'very intense' and 'exceptionally windy' due to the uncertainties. Same goes for 'falling trees' (usually just branches predicted at this stage).


Of this morning's 00z runs, GFS seems to be more or less in line with the above, while UKMO is a bit less intense, as is ECM by the looks of things.


On the other hand, UKMO and ECM have moved towards GFS since yesterday's 12z runs.




The 06z GFS is indeed weaker and further south, so we're a long way from sorted yet.


I'm still laughing at the timing of this thing; the day after my field trip studying the weather in Dorset comes to an end. Talk about a close shave!


Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 


 


Theyre recognising the storm hits when trees still are in leaf after such a mild Autumn - I expect to see alot of felled trees on tuesday morning. 


Polar Low
24 October 2013 10:38:09

Indeed, but most of the ecm members are still in confusion so to look at there own model, perhaps there ukmo data is  more confirming evidence then a 2nd look at ecm members rather a strange statement to make at this stage,


 http://www.ecmwf.int/samples/d/inspect/catalog/samplers/banner/mean_sea_level_pressure_and_temperature_at_850hpa!108!pop!od!enfo!enplot!2013102400!!/


 


 


 




Dont make sense James does it from there own fax charts at t120 which has human input perhaps thou they want to be careful.


Originally Posted by: radiohead 


 


The 120 fax is from last night though, before the 0Z runs. The 0Z ECMWF shifted track further north this morning.


Originally Posted by: Polar Low 

Polar Low
Devonian
24 October 2013 10:45:21

It's worth looking at the 'Weather Impact Matrix'  the Met O use wrt these warning. Monday's storm has a low 'likely' but a high 'impact', hence the amber warning. I think it's sensible to offer warning of events that while still not pinned down would have a big impact.


 


 


 


 


 

24 October 2013 10:47:10

What also surprises me is that there is no mention from the Met Office that this system may head further southward with the UK missing it....

haghir22
24 October 2013 10:48:12


6z navgm cant even c it


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/navgeme_cartes.php?&ech=108&mode=0&carte=0


 


Originally Posted by: Polar Low 


Mmmm. That works in our favour surely, must be nailed on now! Lets not get on to the 'why wish for destructive weather debate', but you know what I mean...


YNWA
Matty H
24 October 2013 10:51:19


hi this storm does look like october 16 1987 . like i said in the model page but if this come off and in the rush hour , this could be worse not in wind strength it could be less strong it depends if this storm has got a sting jet like 87 but compare to the burn's day storm it might be worse because the tress are in full cover . i'm wondering on sunday will the council advise the schools not to open so there won't be  top many caught in the rush hour .


Originally Posted by: doctormog 



Too early to make those sort of calls IMO, and it would be almost unprecendented to close schools for a wind event forecast.

I see the latest Meto fax takes a 975mb low across the far South, in line with the UKMO model that has a more southerly track. This would take the strongest winds across N France at this time.

Originally Posted by: Matty H 



I would say plain stupid let alone unprecedented.

This will be virtually a nowcast situation. These southerly approaching storms always are, and they're not uncommon as we all know. Models in the next few days will have it missing completely to the south and also tracking much further north. If schools were to be shut it would be a decision that would have to be made today, or tomorrow at the latest, which would be complete lunacy. Mind you, in today's ultra cautious, scared to death of everything society nothing would surprise me 🙄

None-the-less, the merit of keeping an eye on this is a no-brainer.

Originally Posted by: nsrobins 



It's not stupid to close schools in the impending run up to a severe wind event. Doing so up here two years ago probably cut the number of people on the move at the heigh of the storm system and decreased its impact and casualties significantly. The closures were and have since been met with very little criticism IME. And that's in a pary of the UK used to very windy conditions.

In this case however being a Monday it would be a very premature move to make such a decision on a Friday but I am sure there are mechanisms in place to be able to make that decision on Sunday evening or even if appropriate Monday morning? The issue is not that the schools will be unsafe or the teachers want the day off, it is about decreasing unnecessary travel in dangerous conditions - which is why it was so successful up here in the last serious storm.

It is all rather hypothetical though and, as you suggest, it would be daft to announce any closures today or tomorrow based on a possibility of severe conditions.

Originally Posted by: stormwatcher 



I thought I made it pretty clear I was talking about a decision being made today or tomorrow?

Obviously if Monday rush hour has trees everywhere and a howling gale that's different.
Polar Low
24 October 2013 10:51:35

Indeed ideal weather for slugs and ducks 


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/accumulation-precipitations/114h.htm


 




Correction south opp 6z gfs still all to play for thou


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?&ech=96&mode=0&carte=1


Originally Posted by: Charmhills 


If its not the wind its the amount of rain that could course flooding problems.


Originally Posted by: Polar Low 

radiohead
24 October 2013 10:53:08


6z navgm cant even c it


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/navgeme_cartes.php?&ech=108&mode=0&carte=0


 


Originally Posted by: Polar Low 


It's daddy, the old NOGAPS, never did have the best eyesight.

idj20
24 October 2013 10:53:49

Never have I been so glued to the model outputs, nor have I hoped so much for something not to come off! But at least the GFS model is going easy on me with that southwards trend.

Certainly will be down to the wire come the moment.


Folkestone Harbour. 
doctormog
24 October 2013 10:54:17
Yes, I thought that you made it pretty clear too ;)

(I was just adding my tuppence worth)
Matty H
24 October 2013 10:57:28

Yes, I thought that you made it pretty clear too ;)

(I was just adding my tuppence worth)

Originally Posted by: doctormog 



Lets leave your tuppence out of a family thread, eh?
festivalking
24 October 2013 11:14:52

I'm sure our weather friends on the western isles and northern isles are wondering what all the fuss is about. Been up there many a time with winds like what has been potentially forecast. They just get on with it. Mind you no trees on the remoter parts......i can see why!


Dousland, Dartmoor 206 m/asl
Its only going to snow when Gibby says so.
24 October 2013 11:27:26


I'm sure our weather friends on the western isles and northern isles are wondering what all the fuss is about. Been up there many a time with winds like what has been potentially forecast. They just get on with it. Mind you no trees on the remoter parts......i can see why!


Originally Posted by: festivalking 


They're also not densely populated with many high rise buildings and the fact these sort of wind occur there often means they're used to it.

Polar Low
24 October 2013 11:35:32

Which means Chelmsford will run out of bread, milk, soup in a few hours folk very bad about that around here.




I'm sure our weather friends on the western isles and northern isles are wondering what all the fuss is about. Been up there many a time with winds like what has been potentially forecast. They just get on with it. Mind you no trees on the remoter parts......i can see why!


Originally Posted by: ManUtdMatt1986 


They're also not densely populated with many high rise buildings and the fact these sort of wind occur there often means they're used to it.


Originally Posted by: festivalking 

24 October 2013 11:39:26

As people think of Oct '87


I also think of times when 'great winds' were forecasted for the south, and it never happened


 


With the models trending south at the moment, i'm fairly confident Monday will be a rain worry only


 


The Met Office got themselves covered with their warning, saying there is low confidence (i would have


said 'very low confidence' on the intensity & track of this low) - low probability but high impact,if it does happen


 


The usual stuff will happen with the Daily Mail's and The Sun's. and The Daily Expresses


I'm sure they will make it sound like the end of the world is approaching on Monday... but hey, relax :)

nsrobins
24 October 2013 11:58:29


As people think of Oct '87


I also think of times when 'great winds' were forecasted for the south, and it never happened


 


With the models trending south at the moment, i'm fairly confident Monday will be a rain worry only


 


The Met Office got themselves covered with their warning, saying there is low confidence (i would have


said 'very low confidence' on the intensity & track of this low) - low probability but high impact,if it does happen


 


The usual stuff will happen with the Daily Mail's and The Sun's. and The Daily Expresses


I'm sure they will make it sound like the end of the world is approaching on Monday... but hey, relax :)


Originally Posted by: ElusivePolarLow 


Is that based on sustantiated evidence, an educated guess or simply wishful thinking?

Not wishing to get engaged in the 'will it, won't it, why say it might when it might not' sort of discussion, I'd just like to remind everyone that this system is still over three days from being born, but the impact if it were to phase with the jet and track across England would be potentially significant. For that reason alone the MetO have released an Amber and quite rightly.
And knowing the uncertainties I will bet the content of my rain gauge that there will be plenty of 'we missed out' and 'MetO promised us a storm' sort of bollocks if the event doesn't materialise.
I won't be one of them.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
doctormog
24 October 2013 12:53:20


As people think of Oct '87


I also think of times when 'great winds' were forecasted for the south, and it never happened


 


With the models trending south at the moment, i'm fairly confident Monday will be a rain worry only


 


The Met Office got themselves covered with their warning, saying there is low confidence (i would have


said 'very low confidence' on the intensity & track of this low) - low probability but high impact,if it does happen


 


The usual stuff will happen with the Daily Mail's and The Sun's. and The Daily Expresses


I'm sure they will make it sound like the end of the world is approaching on Monday... but hey, relax :)


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


Is that based on sustantiated evidence, an educated guess or simply wishful thinking?

Not wishing to get engaged in the 'will it, won't it, why say it might when it might not' sort of discussion, I'd just like to remind everyone that this system is still over three days from being born, but the impact if it were to phase with the jet and track across England would be potentially significant. For that reason alone the MetO have released an Amber and quite rightly.
And knowing the uncertainties I will bet the content of my rain gauge that there will be plenty of 'we missed out' and 'MetO promised us a storm' sort of bollocks if the event doesn't materialise.
I won't be one of them.

Originally Posted by: ElusivePolarLow 



Totally off-topic but don't you find it amazing that we can be discussing hue impact of a storm like this predicted one when, as Neil suggests, it hasn't even been properly formed yet. The weather models and forecasting products may not be perfect but when you pause for a moment and think that they can analyse the current weather data and extrapolate that into a storm forecast for a relatively small area of the planet days in advance it is incredible.
polarwind
24 October 2013 13:01:03



As people think of Oct '87


I also think of times when 'great winds' were forecasted for the south, and it never happened


 


With the models trending south at the moment, i'm fairly confident Monday will be a rain worry only


 


The Met Office got themselves covered with their warning, saying there is low confidence (i would have


said 'very low confidence' on the intensity & track of this low) - low probability but high impact,if it does happen


 


The usual stuff will happen with the Daily Mail's and The Sun's. and The Daily Expresses


I'm sure they will make it sound like the end of the world is approaching on Monday... but hey, relax :)


Originally Posted by: doctormog 


Is that based on sustantiated evidence, an educated guess or simply wishful thinking?

Not wishing to get engaged in the 'will it, won't it, why say it might when it might not' sort of discussion, I'd just like to remind everyone that this system is still over three days from being born, but the impact if it were to phase with the jet and track across England would be potentially significant. For that reason alone the MetO have released an Amber and quite rightly.
And knowing the uncertainties I will bet the content of my rain gauge that there will be plenty of 'we missed out' and 'MetO promised us a storm' sort of bollocks if the event doesn't materialise.
I won't be one of them.


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 



Totally off-topic but don't you find it amazing that we can be discussing hue impact of a storm like this predicted one when, as Neil suggests, it hasn't even been properly formed yet. The weather models and forecasting products may not be perfect but when you pause for a moment and think that they can analyse the current weather data and extrapolate that into a storm forecast for a relatively small area of the planet days in advance it is incredible.

Originally Posted by: ElusivePolarLow 

Forecasting has improved so much........ yes, I think it's incredible........ but I'm not young anymore and can remember what forecasts were like many years ago.


"The professional standards of science must impose a framework of discipline and at the same time encourage rebellion against it". – Michael Polyani (1962)
"If climate science is sound and accurate, then it should be able to respond effectively to all the points raised…." - Grandad
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". - Bertrand Russell
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
"A consensus means that everyone agrees to say collectively what no one believes individually.”- Abba Eban, Israeli diplomat
Dave,Derby
radiohead
24 October 2013 13:26:40

BBC Weather video on Monday's potential storm :


 http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/features/24655853 

ARTzeman
24 October 2013 13:33:24

It is still a watching and waiting but not really wishing for event..Will be rather wet though..






Some people walk in the rain.
Others just get wet.
I Just Blow my horn or trumpet
nsrobins
24 October 2013 13:36:35

For those of you interested in observing and tracking the potential Atlantic storm system over the weekend, here's an excellent guide on rapid cyclogenesis - bombs, baroclinic leafs and sting jets - from Bren Jones (some of you may remember when he was a regular member here).

http://www.eots.co.uk/reports/bomb/bomb03.htm


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
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