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Arcus
Friday, November 22, 2013 9:46:33 PM


Models keep trying to build that ridge but it's not happening.

Originally Posted by: Quantum 


It will, I don't get why people are not looking at the bigger picture. The 500hpa heights on the NH are particularly good today. Ultimately unless that bearing high gets pushed into canada, sooner or later it will merge with greenland. The PV will drop towards scandanavia and we will get a cold spell. Whats going on in the atlantic, I really don't think is too important. Either the atlantic high will retrogress to greenland or will be buldozed by a scandi low. The key thing here, is the great synoptics being progged for the arctic. I think we just need to be patient to wait for it to translate to cold here. Idk, if this reasoning is okay, but it seems sound to me. If I've made a mistake someone tell me so I don't embarass myself further 


 


http://cdn.nwstatic.co.uk/ecmimages/20131122/12/npsh500.240.png


Look, today the ECM has the 564 isopleth over northern alaska! Its like the GFS was a few days ago, or perhaps a little better. 


 


Even more prominent on the anomoly chart


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf/runs/2013112212/ECH101-240.GIF?22-0


 


And things are staying consistant, the GFS first picked this up at the 300ish mark, and the ECM has consistantly forecasted this for days. Still could be a major pattern change, but starting to get less likely. of course there will be a much bigger variation at the surface. 


Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


Sorry, but 10 years of following the models tells me that this is standard sine-wave fare. Azores high attempting to ridge into GL with a glancing northerly to follow as troughs disrupt over GL. As Retron says, no sign of anything interesting for long term cold. Yet.


Ben,
Nr. Easingwold, North Yorkshire
30m asl
Quantum
Friday, November 22, 2013 9:54:05 PM



Models keep trying to build that ridge but it's not happening.

Originally Posted by: Arcus 


It will, I don't get why people are not looking at the bigger picture. The 500hpa heights on the NH are particularly good today. Ultimately unless that bearing high gets pushed into canada, sooner or later it will merge with greenland. The PV will drop towards scandanavia and we will get a cold spell. Whats going on in the atlantic, I really don't think is too important. Either the atlantic high will retrogress to greenland or will be buldozed by a scandi low. The key thing here, is the great synoptics being progged for the arctic. I think we just need to be patient to wait for it to translate to cold here. Idk, if this reasoning is okay, but it seems sound to me. If I've made a mistake someone tell me so I don't embarass myself further 


 


http://cdn.nwstatic.co.uk/ecmimages/20131122/12/npsh500.240.png


Look, today the ECM has the 564 isopleth over northern alaska! Its like the GFS was a few days ago, or perhaps a little better. 


 


Even more prominent on the anomoly chart


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf/runs/2013112212/ECH101-240.GIF?22-0


 


And things are staying consistant, the GFS first picked this up at the 300ish mark, and the ECM has consistantly forecasted this for days. Still could be a major pattern change, but starting to get less likely. of course there will be a much bigger variation at the surface. 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


Sorry, but 10 years of following the models tells me that this is standard sine-wave fare. Azores high attempting to ridge into GL with a glancing northerly to follow as troughs disrupt over GL. As Retron says, no sign of anything interesting for long term cold. Yet.


Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


Yes, but what about the heights over the arctic and the WAA over alaska? Without those I would agree, but that high has only two places it can reasonably go, over canada or to greenland. And the later option is northern blocking; I'm not saying a cold spell is imminent by any means. But with such high heights being forecast, the PV looks like its going to split. I would say that a cold spell in the first week of December looks likely, or at least as likely as it can be at this range. 


Twitter: @QuantumOverlord (general), @MedicaneWatch (medicane/TC stuff)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Arcus
Friday, November 22, 2013 10:12:32 PM
The mantra is, and has always been, intra- and inter- model agreement. I don't see any such trends either intra- (ensembles) or inter- being apparent right now. The scatter of outcomes on all model output at the moment should give nothing but a lack of confidence in the medium to long term outlook.
Ben,
Nr. Easingwold, North Yorkshire
30m asl
Whether Idle
Friday, November 22, 2013 10:40:51 PM

http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?ech=204&code=0&mode=1


-14 850s into Shetland.  Looks like a short sharp shock


Dover, 5m asl. Half a mile from the south coast.
Phil G
Friday, November 22, 2013 10:41:10 PM
White Meadows
Friday, November 22, 2013 10:48:05 PM
Something still 'going on' to our north west later into FI but it's moussaka and snowballs on this run.

More runs please....
Phil G
Friday, November 22, 2013 10:51:47 PM
Does break through in the end, but the charts around here remind of the Atlantic having trouble breaking a cold block down.
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn3362.png 
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn33617.png 
Karl Guille
Friday, November 22, 2013 10:54:49 PM
Certainly plenty of glancing cold blows as we head into FI but no immediate signs of established cold. Off to the UK on 4th December for Fulham away so might need an extra layer of clothing if the 18z is anything to go by!
St. Sampson
Guernsey
Quantum
Friday, November 22, 2013 10:57:09 PM

The mantra is, and has always been, intra- and inter- model agreement. I don't see any such trends either intra- (ensembles) or inter- being apparent right now. The scatter of outcomes on all model output at the moment should give nothing but a lack of confidence in the medium to long term outlook.

Originally Posted by: Arcus 


Yes but presumably you are talking about 850hpa parameters for the UK. The broader picture of an arctic high forming and making its way towards greenland has been consistant across all models and the ensembles for the last 2 or 3 days. And while surface patterns deviate quite alot, the upper patterns do much less. All I am saying is, there is strong evidence (in my eyes) of northern blocking developing in the arctic because of this. I understand there is no agreement as to how this will affect the UK, and especially when it will. But the way I see it, unless that high gets pushed into canada we will see a cold spell caused by greenland blocking which could happen anytime in the last few days of november or the first week in december. 


I'm really struggling to see where the flaw in this is. A low AO tends to split the PV and will often bring a cold spell to the UK. Sure the lag is uncertain, as is the exact method it will happen. But I don't think a stubborn mid atlantic high is really going to be an issue against a greenland block and the PV moving into scandi. 


 


 


http://cdn.nwstatic.co.uk/gfsimages/gfs.20131122/18/186/npsh500.png


 


18Z is an upgrade, notice the warmer colours between alaska and russia. 


Twitter: @QuantumOverlord (general), @MedicaneWatch (medicane/TC stuff)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
nsrobins
Friday, November 22, 2013 11:04:42 PM

Quantum
I would dearly love your projections to be realised just for the amount of effort you put into it
As it stands I have to agree with Ben and can't see too much other than a lift and sink scenario that keeps reloading west to east.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Polar Low
Friday, November 22, 2013 11:26:43 PM

it might not be that easy for it to sink thou Neil little pieces off energy run along the southern flank of the high if you look also depends on energy in canada as James earlier


http://www.meteo.psu.edu/~fxg1/ECMWF_0z/hgtcomp.html


 



Quantum
I would dearly love your projections to be realised just for the amount of effort you put into it
As it stands I have to agree with Ben and can't see too much other than a lift and sink scenario that keeps reloading west to east.


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 

Polar Low
Friday, November 22, 2013 11:45:10 PM

if u run it here you can see it better with gm small amounts of energy  left and right that would be hard to sink imo


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/geme_cartes.php?&ech=210&mode=0&carte=1


Thus the scadi trough comes more into play as long as Canada plays ball.


Advantage of a projector.


My glass is not full either  more runs required as always but intresting sfuff


 


 

glenogle
Saturday, November 23, 2013 12:29:41 AM

The mantra is, and has always been, intra- and inter- model agreement. I don't see any such trends either intra- (ensembles) or inter- being apparent right now. The scatter of outcomes on all model output at the moment should give nothing but a lack of confidence in the medium to long term outlook.

Originally Posted by: Arcus 



Here hear 😛
UserPostedImage LLTNP 105m asl 
Whether Idle
Saturday, November 23, 2013 5:47:04 AM

http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/geme_cartes.php?&ech=240&mode=0&carte=0


GEM deep in FI.  GEM likes this pattern, but it stays inthe relams of Fantasy.


Meanwhile in the reliable and semi reliable we find these:


 


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/geme_cartes.php?&ech=120&mode=0&carte=0


 


 


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/geme_cartes.php?&ech=144&mode=0&carte=0


 


At least it will stop raining IMBY!: http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ukmo2.php?nh=0&ech=120&carte=1021 UKMO


 


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf.php?ech=240&mode=1&map=0&archive=0  ECM deep  Fi


and the reliable:  http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf.php?ech=96&mode=1&map=0&archive=0


So, the models say largely dry and mildish for the forseeable.  A seasonal end to Autumn seems probable.


Dover, 5m asl. Half a mile from the south coast.
GIBBY
Saturday, November 23, 2013 8:11:33 AM

Good morning. Here is the report on the midnight outputs from GFS, UKMO, GEM, NAVGEM and ECM for today Saturday November 23rd 2013.


All models show High pressure the dominating factor to our weather centred down to the West or SW. As a result dry weather will ensue for most areas with the exception of isolated showers near coastal areas. Frost and fog patches will be commonplace over the coming days but will be tempered in amounts for a period towards the middle and end of next week as winds back more towards the NW and strengthen somewhat carrying cloud and some rain towards the north and East midweek, clearing again by the weekend with a return to similar synoptics as we have now with High pressure well in control likely to be centred over or close to Southern Britain.


GFS shows very little change through it's latter stages this morning. As our High declines SE'wards later then a new one takes control near to the SW separated by a spell of rain on a cold front. This means that frost would then return late in the run as the weather settles down once more for most away from the far North.


UKMO closes it's run this morning with High pressure close to the SE and to the West with a weakening trough dissecting the two. So some cloud and a little rain looks like moving East or SE late next week to be followed by a return to High pressure based weather with frost and fog patches.


GEM shows a much more aggressive NW flow developing later next week with gales and rain at times in the north and East while the South and West hold on to largely dry and breezy conditions with plenty of cloud hence little in the way of frost and fog later.


NAVGEM also highlights a strong NW flow late next week and the weekend with rain reaching Northern areas with the South staying dry, breezy and rather cloudy with average temperatures.


ECM too shows a short spell of NW winds when the North and East in particular might see some rain but this becomes quickly replaced by High pressure building across the UK from the Atlantic with a return to fine and dry conditions with frost and fog patches night and morning.


The GFS Ensembles continue to show largely normal conditions for this time of the year with temperatures never straying far from either side of average. However, with High pressure around especially in the South frost and fog is possible at times as well as some rain later as Low pressure to the North allows front to cross the North in particular in the second half of the run,


The Jet Stream remains to the North of the UK and shows that the main core of the flow remains there for the foreseeable future with the direction turning SE over Europe as it sinks down on the far Eastern flank of High pressure near to the UK or in the Atlantic.


In Summary very little has changed today with a High pressure dominated pattern persisting. There are short intervals when weakening troughs could cross down over the Uk from the NW with a little rain but the pattern is always favoured to reset once passed to maintain the anticyclonic theme with any meaningful rainfall held well to the North and NE. Frost and fog will continue to be a feature especially early and late in the period with a milder interlude midweek lessening this risk for a time as increasing winds and cloud in association with one such trough crosses SE later next week.


Martin G
Kilmersdon Radstock Bath Somerset



Look up my New Facebook Weather Page  for all the latest up to the minute weather stories as they happen
cowman
Saturday, November 23, 2013 8:18:19 AM
Thanks Martin.dry for the most part then.
doctormog
Saturday, November 23, 2013 9:18:07 AM
A largely westerly flow in the output this morning and basically nothing too exciting in terms of weather. Pretty dry away from northwestern parts and the most settled conditions in the south and east. Typical British weather would summarise the outlook IMO, with temperature gradually creeping from just below to just above average..
Retron
Saturday, November 23, 2013 9:35:15 AM

A largely westerly flow in the output this morning and basically nothing too exciting in terms of weather. Pretty dry away from northwestern parts and the most settled conditions in the south and east. Typical British weather would summarise the outlook IMO, with temperature gradually creeping from just below to just above average..

Originally Posted by: doctormog 


I'd agree with that - a run-of-the-mill spell looks pretty much certain now, which will probably last into the first week of December at least. The GEFS is showing an increasing "sine wave" pattern, indicative of more mobility than of late and EPS shows a good deal of spaghetti too, also suggesting a lack of blocking in the output.


With no polar upper high in prospect the only hope for coldies in the medium term is of the odd transitory shot of cold as ridges topple eastwards.


EDIT: Here's the 0z ECM ensemble for Reading. It shows the transition to near-normal conditions well:


http://oi44.tinypic.com/24obwnt.jpg


Leysdown, north Kent
Quantum
Saturday, November 23, 2013 9:55:51 AM

Damit, the thing I have dreaded seems to have happened this morning. The bearing high is moving towards canada  instead of greenland. Still, there is plenty of chance for it to get back on track, and the ECM is nearly there. 


Twitter: @QuantumOverlord (general), @MedicaneWatch (medicane/TC stuff)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Arbroath 1320
Saturday, November 23, 2013 9:59:57 AM

A largely westerly flow in the output this morning and basically nothing too exciting in terms of weather. Pretty dry away from northwestern parts and the most settled conditions in the south and east. Typical British weather would summarise the outlook IMO, with temperature gradually creeping from just below to just above average..

Originally Posted by: doctormog 



Yes, difficult to see at the moment how we are going to get out of this pattern.
GGTTH
Saint Snow
Saturday, November 23, 2013 10:06:01 AM


A largely westerly flow in the output this morning and basically nothing too exciting in terms of weather. Pretty dry away from northwestern parts and the most settled conditions in the south and east. Typical British weather would summarise the outlook IMO, with temperature gradually creeping from just below to just above average..

Originally Posted by: Retron 


I'd agree with that - a run-of-the-mill spell looks pretty much certain now, which will probably last into the first week of December at least. The GEFS is showing an increasing "sine wave" pattern, indicative of more mobility than of late and EPS shows a good deal of spaghetti too, also suggesting a lack of blocking in the output.


With no polar upper high in prospect the only hope for coldies in the medium term is of the odd transitory shot of cold as ridges topple eastwards.


EDIT: Here's the 0z ECM ensemble for Reading. It shows the transition to near-normal conditions well:


http://oi44.tinypic.com/24obwnt.jpg


Originally Posted by: doctormog 


 


  On all counts.



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
nickl
Saturday, November 23, 2013 10:39:45 AM
So the big question this morning is 'will the colder few days around the 5th/7th dec be just a blip or something more sustained?'

I have some sympathy with quantums viewpoint. The vortex still seems unwilling to allow a greeny ridge but a large nw Atlantic block together with a strong scandi trough could be worthy of interest in the first half December.
WMB
  • WMB
  • Advanced Member
Saturday, November 23, 2013 10:47:17 AM

Shades of the end of November 1988 in today's charts?

Stormchaser
Saturday, November 23, 2013 11:50:04 AM

It's a long road that we're on, and I still don't believe that we'll establish any persistent blocking until late next month, although 10 days leeway has to be allowed for due to the outrageous uncertainty that comes with such long range anticipations.


At the moment we're seeing the models project some amplification and then knock it down a bit, repeatedly, and this is typical of when there are signs of change emerging - remember back in late June when the models were trying to start the prolonged fine spell about a week or so too soon? ...and that was a less complex situation than we have know.


This is what creates the infamous 'model rollercoaster' that we see every winter, as a signal for one spell of blocking can lead to 3-5 predicted spells that never materialise 


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2023's Homeland Extremes:
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Keep Calm and Forecast On
ARTzeman
Saturday, November 23, 2013 12:22:32 PM

Thank you Martin for your output. ..No rain will be a change..






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