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Gooner
22 January 2015 22:27:50


 


No idea 


Originally Posted by: Matty H 


His input is most welcome but I do wish he would post so a fikko like me could understand


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


White Meadows
22 January 2015 22:32:58


 


Is there a simple version of this? .. Love the fact we get info from a pro but I have to be honest I never have a clue what it all means, it could be covering every single outcome possible and I wouldn't be none the wiser 


Originally Posted by: Jonesy 


So the phrase goes... 'If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS'  

Gooner
22 January 2015 22:35:50

Well... good support in new EC Monthly by mid-Feb for GloSea5 signal re increased incidence of blocking. Indeed, by week 4, first output we've seen all winter with NO low MSLP anomalies anywhere on the NW Atlantic-European charts. However....where blocking sets-up, if it establishes, is another matter. This was stressed earlier re GloSea5 signal: it MAY lead to colder weather but equally may do opposite. Nonetheless, a growing (if still tentative) bi-model indicator of change eventually afoot


More From Ian on NW


Something about blocking.................but where is anyone's guess


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Gooner
22 January 2015 22:37:36


Looks very similar to what Louise Lear was showing for next week


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


David M Porter
22 January 2015 22:41:01


Still a case of ECM vs GFS the former going for blocking, the later struggling. Personally I still think there is a very good chance of a cold spell, and the best chance all winter of a potent cold spell (not that this is 'high'). 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


The model output, both at the moment and during the winter generally thus far, hasn't been without interest for cold fans. OK, most of it has not come to fruition as many here (me included) would have hoped, but at least it hasn't been the never-ending mild & zonal dross we saw a year ago.


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
Quantum
22 January 2015 22:42:03

Wow 18Z really gets the frigid arctic air close! 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Patrick01
22 January 2015 22:43:32



Looks very similar to what Louise Lear was showing for next week


Originally Posted by: Gooner 


 


A 960mb low over the Baltics must be a tad unusual? I think it's even at 955mb before that - a low that deep in Europe would drag down some fairly chilly air behind it I'd imagine!

Gooner
22 January 2015 22:47:22


Wow 18Z really gets the frigid arctic air close! 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 



Indeed Q, Feb could start quite chilly


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Quantum
22 January 2015 22:48:33

Since I haven't had time to make Theta E yet :)



This is a proper arctic air-mass, not some weak 2nd hand polar hand me down. OK to be fair it hasn't hit the UK yet and lies behind a cold front just to the north of shetland, but the point I am making is that to get such cold dry air so far south usually requries an easterly. To get something like this on a northerly is exceptional, even more so if the UK gets hit by it which is far more dubious. 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Quantum
22 January 2015 22:54:49

I believe the lowest thickness on record on a Northerly in the UK occured in the western isles and was 498dm, on the 18Z we have 504dm in Shetland, and if the northerly had not been cut of I'm almost sure the record would have been broken. The potential is still there, its a shame it will probably be not realized. 


Edit: look out for some insane 18z ensembles tonight where the cutoff does not occur. 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Chiltern Blizzard
22 January 2015 22:57:49
Apologies for my ignorance, but what exactly is 'Theta E'?
Rendlesham, Suffolk 20m asl
Quantum
22 January 2015 23:05:30

Apologies for my ignorance, but what exactly is 'Theta E'?

Originally Posted by: Chiltern Blizzard 


Equivalent potential temperature at the 850hpa level. Basically if you take all the moisture in the atmosphere and condense it into a liquid, all the latent heat combined with the ambient temperature results in the theta value. The theta E is superior because it takes into account the moisture of an air-mass rather than just its temperature, consequently it is far easier to spot a front between two air-masses of different characteristics.


 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Gooner
22 January 2015 23:09:39

https://www.aer.com/science-research/climate-weather/arctic-oscillation


Cohen's update.......................for what it's worth


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Jonesy
22 January 2015 23:11:19


Well... good support in new EC Monthly by mid-Feb for GloSea5 signal re increased incidence of blocking. Indeed, by week 4, first output we've seen all winter with NO low MSLP anomalies anywhere on the NW Atlantic-European charts. However....where blocking sets-up, if it establishes, is another matter. This was stressed earlier re GloSea5 signal: it MAY lead to colder weather but equally may do opposite. Nonetheless, a growing (if still tentative) bi-model indicator of change eventually afoot


More From Ian on NW


Something about blocking.................but where is anyone's guess


Originally Posted by: Gooner 


I thought GloSea5 was suppose to be showing a potential pattern change back in early December i seem to recall? I'm sure something was posted on here from Ian F regarding it.


I have to be honest with the sound of the last part of that post it still seems 50/50 to me.


Medway Towns (Kent)
The Weather will do what it wants, when it wants, no matter what data is thrown at it !
Stormchaser
22 January 2015 23:23:08


 More important is the clear propensity for pattern change(s), something utterly absent this time last year when the Somerset Levels looked more akin to the Florida Everglades. As Tamara outlined, the potential players further ahead are varied, complex and continuing to prove enigmatic this winter. Indeed, UKMO Chief F'caster tells me his team met for an hour this morning solely to discuss global drivers, which remain tricky to correlate (versus climatology) with some longer M-R and monthly ensemble suites (as has been so all winter, making the GloSea5 performance thus-far all the more creditable).



  • -


 


From I F over on NW



Originally Posted by: Gooner 


The vortex displacement to Siberia in the stratosphere in the short to medium term could serve to break down the Canadian vortex in the troposphere and allow some height rises to our NW to start emerging, but it's unclear to what extent such a response will be seen, if much at all.


The MJO might return to strength on another cycle capable of encouraging amplification of the Atlantic flow starting in about a fortnight's time, possibly followed by high latitude blocking establishing, but it's unclear to what extent this will occur, if much at all.


 


Starting to see a theme here? 


Obviously the MJO situation is more important for weeks 2-3 of February so not worth worrying about for a little while yet... unless, that is, it kicks off on a new amplified (enhanced strength) cycle sooner than anticipated. For what it's worth, the latest ECMF output is basically inconclusive on this matter, while GEFS persists with showing a fairly significant event taking place starting in 12-14 days time.


If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

https://twitter.com/peacockreports 
2023's Homeland Extremes:
T-Max: 30.2°C 9th Sep (...!) | T-Min: -7.1°C 22nd & 23rd Jan | Wettest Day: 25.9mm 2nd Nov | Ice Days: 1 (2nd Dec -1.3°C in freezing fog)
Keep Calm and Forecast On
White Meadows
22 January 2015 23:32:19


https://www.aer.com/science-research/climate-weather/arctic-oscillation


Cohen's update.......................for what it's worth


Originally Posted by: Gooner 

Excellent analysis there, thanks Gooner for posting the link. 


It seems feb might fulfil its potential indicated by CFS waaaay back in oct/November.


Jonsey- yes I.F. Did indeed call a cold shot & blocking based on Glosea5 early-mid December. Never quite materialised and the signal was quickly gone by the 3rd week.

Gooner
22 January 2015 23:40:57


Control again hinting at something in the NE


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Gooner
22 January 2015 23:42:28


If only from the control


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Stormchaser
22 January 2015 23:45:09


https://www.aer.com/science-research/climate-weather/arctic-oscillation


Cohen's update.......................for what it's worth


Originally Posted by: Gooner 


Doesn't sound very promising for the UK, though he seems to be expecting the +ve AO to persist for longer than most output shows - the consensus returns it to neutral or positive within a week from today.


He is also assuming weak MJO influence, which may or may not be the case... the wildcard in the pack I suppose. Oddly, he refers to GFS projecting a new event starting in phase 5 to 6 but this hasn't been true for several days now... maybe he forgot to refresh his data source or something. GFS now has a phase 7 start point.


 


Within the 8-10 day period, we seem as ever to be relying on the vortex over Canada at least losing organisation so that the jet may take on a more NW-SE orientation through the UK, and it then becomes a matter of how much in the way of low heights can get SE of the UK as opposed to sticking around over Canada. Current modelling certainly has the most pronounced transfer of low heights in that direction seen so far this winter, but as with a few quite similar opportunities seen these past few months, there's a risk of that trough lifting out again before any cold conditions can really get established here.


That trough needs to really dig south and become cut-off from the polar jet before I can really get all that interested.
Gooner's posted a good couple of examples to show the sort of thing I mean 


If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

https://twitter.com/peacockreports 
2023's Homeland Extremes:
T-Max: 30.2°C 9th Sep (...!) | T-Min: -7.1°C 22nd & 23rd Jan | Wettest Day: 25.9mm 2nd Nov | Ice Days: 1 (2nd Dec -1.3°C in freezing fog)
Keep Calm and Forecast On
tallyho_83
23 January 2015 00:11:32

Just for Frustration:



Home Location - Kellands Lane, Okehampton, Devon (200m ASL)
---------------------------------------
Sean Moon
Magical Moon
www.magical-moon.com


Quantum
23 January 2015 00:38:38

Because I want to be clear this is roughly what I think is going to happen. This is based on experience with the patterns being shown, rather than anything particularly technical or theoretical. Obviously it may not come off. 



Stamp 1:


The first is an approximation to what we might expect at 192hr, Low pressure to the East, high pressure to the west, strong northerly winds provide a brief cold spell especially for the north.


Stamp 2: The block topples, but pressure remains low over scandanavia, a trough develops west of iceland and deepens while moving on a south easterly trajectory


Stamp 3: The trough merges with the scandi low pushing the Azores high to the west. 


Stamp 4: The secondary low looses integrity as it moves south of scotland, once again pressure is kept low to the east, and a northerly develops for the 2nd time, but already a 2nd trough, this time slightly further south is developing in the atlantic, the cold spell is short lived.


Stamp 5: Low pressure moving in from the west while deepening into a rather significant feature before clearing east. A strong cold front will be notable on this feature, this time the azors high is flattened to the south, and merges with a weak area of high pressure in E canada and greenland to form the classic moon shaped HP.


Stamp 6: This northerly is much more stable, with Heights rising in the north, a LP moves against the block challenging it, perhaps we will see yet another reload attempt, perhaps the Atlantic will win or perhaps the block will hold out. 


 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
SEMerc
23 January 2015 00:47:51

Bloody hell, I need to get a bigger screen.

tallyho_83
23 January 2015 01:31:22


Because I want to be clear this is roughly what I think is going to happen. This is based on experience with the patterns being shown, rather than anything particularly technical or theoretical. Obviously it may not come off. 



Stamp 1:


The first is an approximation to what we might expect at 192hr, Low pressure to the East, high pressure to the west, strong northerly winds provide a brief cold spell especially for the north.


Stamp 2: The block topples, but pressure remains low over scandanavia, a trough develops west of iceland and deepens while moving on a south easterly trajectory


Stamp 3: The trough merges with the scandi low pushing the Azores high to the west. 


Stamp 4: The secondary low looses integrity as it moves south of scotland, once again pressure is kept low to the east, and a northerly develops for the 2nd time, but already a 2nd trough, this time slightly further south is developing in the atlantic, the cold spell is short lived.


Stamp 5: Low pressure moving in from the west while deepening into a rather significant feature before clearing east. A strong cold front will be notable on this feature, this time the azors high is flattened to the south, and merges with a weak area of high pressure in E canada and greenland to form the classic moon shaped HP.


Stamp 6: This northerly is much more stable, with Heights rising in the north, a LP moves against the block challenging it, perhaps we will see yet another reload attempt, perhaps the Atlantic will win or perhaps the block will hold out. 


 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


 


So Low Pressure always over Scandinavia!?


Home Location - Kellands Lane, Okehampton, Devon (200m ASL)
---------------------------------------
Sean Moon
Magical Moon
www.magical-moon.com


Rob K
23 January 2015 01:33:37


 


Is there a simple version of this? .. Love the fact we get info from a pro but I have to be honest I never have a clue what it all means, it could be covering every single outcome possible and I wouldn't be none the wiser 


Originally Posted by: Jonesy 


Seems pretty clear to me. He is saying that the models are indicating a pattern change, but that the patterns this winter are not following on obviously from the global climate drivers. He goes on to say that this makes the good performance (so far) of the Met's GLOSEA model surprising. 


Nothing too complicated surely?


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Quantum
23 January 2015 02:12:36


 


So Low Pressure always over Scandinavia!?


Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 


Yes, I think that is one point which there is very little doubt over. All the models keep heights unusually low in scandi. 



Control and ensemble mean, just a quick sample. 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.

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