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Hungry Tiger
25 January 2020 15:18:26


Some appalling images on social media from the "meat" market where this is supposed to have originated


Live animals being treated appallingly. At risk of doing a Laurence Fox, I've always found the Chinese a very unfriendly and cruel people, so perhaps this is nature's revenge


 


Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


The Chinese eat a lot of animals in a way we wouldn't want to - But there is a very good reason for that - It stems from the famine culture which resulted from a massive famine there in 1959 to 1961.


 


Details here.


 


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine


 


 


Gavin S. FRmetS.
TWO Moderator.
Contact the TWO team - [email protected]
South Cambridgeshire. 93 metres or 302.25 feet ASL.


Gandalf The White
25 January 2020 15:23:34


 


or maybe those who are more vulnerable to infection are those that are mainly infected?


Originally Posted by: westv 


Viruses don't work like that; it isn't possible for them to 'identify' vulnerable individuals before infecting them.  It infects and the impact of that infection depends on the strength of the individual's immune system, which I think is a function of age and other medical conditions.


The literature says that in the early stages of an outbreak of this type the statistics will be skewed towards those most vulnerable simply because they will succumb soonest.


As I keep saying, it will take a while for sufficient evidence to emerge to give a clearer picture of the rate of transmission/spread and the severity and mortality rate.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Gandalf The White
25 January 2020 15:28:44

 


The Chinese eat a lot of animals in a way we wouldn't want to - But there is a very good reason for that - It stems from the famine culture which resulted from a massive famine there in 1959 to 1961.


Details here.


 


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine


 


Originally Posted by: Hungry Tiger 


It has parallels with the fondness of some in sub-Saharan African to eat wild animals including monkeys. It is widely believed that a hunter killing a money inflected with Ebola was the starting point for Ebola, for example.


Bats are another major source of viral infections which are capable of making the jump to humans.  There is a case of a tourist touching infected bat drippings whilst on a nature trek and the infection passing through an existing wound.


The bottom line is that close contact with wild animals that carry a wide range of viruses is equivalent to playing a version of Russian Roulette.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Hungry Tiger
25 January 2020 15:32:04


 


It has parallels with the fondness of some in sub-Saharan African to eat wild animals including monkeys. It is widely believed that a hunter killing a money inflected with Ebola was the starting point for Ebola, for example.


Bats are another major source of viral infections which are capable of making the jump to humans.  There is a case of a tourist touching infected bat drippings whilst on a nature trek and the infection passing through an existing wound.


The bottom line is that close contact with wild animals that carry a wide range of viruses is equivalent to playing a version of Russian Roulette.


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


You're quite right - Also I've just corrected my typos - Getting used to vari focal spectacles.


Gavin S. FRmetS.
TWO Moderator.
Contact the TWO team - [email protected]
South Cambridgeshire. 93 metres or 302.25 feet ASL.


Gandalf The White
25 January 2020 15:36:54


 


You're quite right - Also I've just corrected my typos - Getting used to vari focal spectacles.


Originally Posted by: Hungry Tiger 


I remember when I got varifocals for the first time: I looked down and wondered who's feet they were......


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Roger Parsons
25 January 2020 15:53:11


The Chinese eat a lot of animals in a way we wouldn't want to - But there is a very good reason for that - It stems from the famine culture which resulted from a massive famine there in 1950 to 1061.


Details here.


 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine


Originally Posted by: Hungry Tiger 


Different cultures approach this in different ways, Gavin. Not so long ago many UK households would be able to kill, skin and butcher animals such as rabbits for the pot. Even the family pig. Today many of us would be squeamish about that. As a 6th former I had to kill and skin my own rabbit for dissection. And we pithed our own frogs for dissection. I killed my first steer in an abattoir near Linton not far from you and since then have lost count of beasts I have killed and eaten, hopefully calmly and kindly. ["Who are we eating today?"] But for most people these days that would be bizarre and unacceptable, except possibly with game or fish. But that is how it was.


We also find that in many parts of the world people integrate "farm" animals in the home - quite frequently they live alongside humans - which is where the interaction and mutation of potentially pathogenic viruses takes place. Animals live in the family space - but when the time comes to sell or eat them - then practicalities, sometime brutal-seeming practicalities, take over.  Tough stuff still goes on in the UK, but out of sight, and we pick up packages of neutral-looking meat products, ignoring the realities of animal production, transport, slaughter and butchery.


So the question is who has got the greater tendency for cruelty, those who can face the tasks or those who choose to ignore reality and let someone else do the job, hopefully humanely? I take the view that if I am going to eat something I ought, at least, know what is involved.


R.


RogerP
West Lindsey district of Lincolnshire
Everything taken together, here in Lincolnshire are more good things than man could have had the conscience to ask.
William Cobbett, in his Rural Rides - c.1830
Roger Parsons
25 January 2020 15:55:34


I remember when I got varifocals for the first time: I looked down and wondered who's feet they were......


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


I agree with that, Gandalf. I take mine off to walk downstairs. The only thing they are good for is watching TV and using an i-Pad at the same time! R


RogerP
West Lindsey district of Lincolnshire
Everything taken together, here in Lincolnshire are more good things than man could have had the conscience to ask.
William Cobbett, in his Rural Rides - c.1830
Gandalf The White
25 January 2020 16:04:21


 


Different cultures approach this in different ways, Gavin. Not so long ago many UK households would be able to kill, skin and butcher animals such as rabbits for the pot. Even the family pig. Today many of us would be squeamish about that. As a 6th former I had to kill and skin my own rabbit for dissection. And we pithed our own frogs for dissection. I killed my first steer in an abattoir near Linton not far from you and since then have lost count of beasts I have killed and eaten, hopefully calmly and kindly. ["Who are we eating today?"] But for most people these days that would be bizarre and unacceptable, except possibly with game or fish. But that is how it was.


We also find that in many parts of the world people integrate "farm" animals in the home - quite frequently they live alongside humans - which is where the interaction and mutation of potentially pathogenic viruses takes place. Animals live in the family space - but when the time comes to sell or eat them - then practicalities, sometime brutal-seeming practicalities, take over.  Tough stuff still goes on in the UK, but out of sight, and we pick up packages of neutral-looking meat products, ignoring the realities of animal production, transport, slaughter and butchery.


So the question is who has got the greater tendency for cruelty, those who can face the tasks or those who choose to ignore reality and let someone else do the job, hopefully humanely? I take the view that if I am going to eat something I ought, at least, know what is involved.


R.


Originally Posted by: Roger Parsons 


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Gandalf The White
25 January 2020 16:08:15


 


Different cultures approach this in different ways, Gavin. Not so long ago many UK households would be able to kill, skin and butcher animals such as rabbits for the pot. Even the family pig. Today many of us would be squeamish about that. As a 6th former I had to kill and skin my own rabbit for dissection. And we pithed our own frogs for dissection. I killed my first steer in an abattoir near Linton not far from you and since then have lost count of beasts I have killed and eaten, hopefully calmly and kindly. ["Who are we eating today?"] But for most people these days that would be bizarre and unacceptable, except possibly with game or fish. But that is how it was.


We also find that in many parts of the world people integrate "farm" animals in the home - quite frequently they live alongside humans - which is where the interaction and mutation of potentially pathogenic viruses takes place. Animals live in the family space - but when the time comes to sell or eat them - then practicalities, sometime brutal-seeming practicalities, take over.  Tough stuff still goes on in the UK, but out of sight, and we pick up packages of neutral-looking meat products, ignoring the realities of animal production, transport, slaughter and butchery.


So the question is who has got the greater tendency for cruelty, those who can face the tasks or those who choose to ignore reality and let someone else do the job, hopefully humanely? I take the view that if I am going to eat something I ought, at least, know what is involved.


R.


Originally Posted by: Roger Parsons 


I have often wondered how many more people would give up meat if they had to spend even a few minutes inside an abattoir.  I have sometimes thought that if I was consistent and honest with myself that I should stop eating meat but it's a difficult change to make.  Our half-way house, questionable or not, is to buy only free range meat where possible, reared to high standards. I know that doesn't address what happens once the animal leaves the farm but it's a start.  I think battery farming is barbaric.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Roger Parsons
25 January 2020 16:18:57


I have often wondered how many more people would give up meat if they had to spend even a few minutes inside an abattoir.  I have sometimes thought that if I was consistent and honest with myself that I should stop eating meat but it's a difficult change to make.  Our half-way house, questionable or not, is to buy only free range meat where possible, reared to high standards. I know that doesn't address what happens once the animal leaves the farm but it's a start.  I think battery farming is barbaric.


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


It's difficult in towns, Gandalf. A village butcher can usually tell you where his meat comes from. We used to buy from butchers who bought animals that had been used for local nature reserve management - Hebridean sheep or long-horn cattle. And pork from a friend who raised his own organic pigs. Now we just go with what the butcher's advises. In our Pacific years I never ate human meat - but for quality I might give a Vegan a try if I ever get the opportunity. The ultimate veganism, perhaps? [Only joking! Butcher's humour.]


R


RogerP
West Lindsey district of Lincolnshire
Everything taken together, here in Lincolnshire are more good things than man could have had the conscience to ask.
William Cobbett, in his Rural Rides - c.1830
Gandalf The White
25 January 2020 16:41:34


 


It's difficult in towns, Gandalf. A village butcher can usually tell you where his meat comes from. We used to buy from butchers who bought animals that had been used for local nature reserve management - Hebridean sheep or long-horn cattle. And pork from a friend who raised his own organic pigs. Now we just go with what the butcher's advises. In our Pacific years I never ate human meat - but for quality I might give a Vegan a try if I ever get the opportunity. The ultimate veganism, perhaps? [Only joking! Butcher's humour.]


R


Originally Posted by: Roger Parsons 


 


LOL. For some reason that reminds me of the old restaurant joke:


"Do you serve children here?"


"Yes, of course; how would you like them cooked?"


😀


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
25 January 2020 17:07:37


 


The Chinese eat a lot of animals in a way we wouldn't want to - But there is a very good reason for that - It stems from the famine culture which resulted from a massive famine there in 1959 to 1961.


Originally Posted by: Hungry Tiger 


Also a bit of regional culture, I think. Chinese from the north of the country claim that if it has four legs and it's not a table, the Cantonese will eat it.


 


On a different tack, an expat living in Wuhan and on the BBC News Channel via Skype was saying not to take too much from newsreels of queues at hospitals. Apparently, as there are no GPs in the Chinese system, anyone who is ill is automatically seen at the hospital or associated clinic. 


War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

Chichester 12m asl
Gandalf The White
25 January 2020 17:25:58


 


Also a bit of regional culture, I think. Chinese from the north of the country claim that if it has four legs and it's not a table, the Cantonese will eat it.


 


On a different tack, an expat living in Wuhan and on the BBC News Channel via Skype was saying not to take too much from newsreels of queues at hospitals. Apparently, as there are no GPs in the Chinese system, anyone who is ill is automatically seen at the hospital or associated clinic. 


Originally Posted by: DEW 


But as someone pointed out, if you’ve got lots of people in a confined space and one of them has the new virus it’s an increased risk.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Bugglesgate
25 January 2020 19:45:02


 


I agree with that, Gandalf. I take mine off to walk downstairs. The only thing they are good for is watching TV and using an i-Pad at the same time! R


Originally Posted by: Roger Parsons 


Not keen on them really.  They have their uses though.   I was doing a course on Python this week  and   they  were essential for the mix of PC work and periodically looking at the  code examples projected on the screen.  I also find them useful   for driving, otherwise it's a  choice  between  seeing where you are going or reading the instruments


Chris (It,its)
Between Newbury and Basingstoke
"When they are giving you their all, some stagger and fall, after all it's not easy banging your heart against some mad buggers wall"
Gandalf The White
25 January 2020 22:52:00
A doctor treating patients suffering from the new virus has died after catching it.

This has two implications: first, the virus can kill apparently fit and healthy people, which is a concern, and second it suggests possible failings in protective measures being used.

Some experts are suggesting that the Chinese authorities have been too secretive and too slow to step up containment measures. Even now their censors are stamping down on reports in social media - and state-controlled media is playing down coverage.

Overall this remains predominantly a problem for China rather than the world but the underlying issues are a concern: it would appear that the failings when SARS broke out around 15 years ago still remain.
Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Gandalf The White
25 January 2020 22:53:20


 


Not keen on them really.  They have their uses though.   I was doing a course on Python this week  and   they  were essential for the mix of PC work and periodically looking at the  code examples projected on the screen.  I also find them useful   for driving, otherwise it's a  choice  between  seeing where you are going or reading the instruments


Originally Posted by: Bugglesgate 


Just to pull us back in topic with a dash of humour, at least you were just studying python and not eating it..!


embarassedwink


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


four
  • four
  • Advanced Member
25 January 2020 23:37:27
Serpentza on youtube did an excellent video about 'attitude problems' in China yesterday.
DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
26 January 2020 06:46:54


An entirely new 1000-bed hospital to be built in Wuhan in just 5 days Now there's a 'can-do' attitude!


Originally Posted by: DEW 


For SARS, the Chinese complted a hospital in 7 days


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-51245156


War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

Chichester 12m asl
Gandalf The White
26 January 2020 08:11:43


 


Also a bit of regional culture, I think. Chinese from the north of the country claim that if it has four legs and it's not a table, the Cantonese will eat it.


Originally Posted by: DEW 


The saying also includes


”If it flies and it’s not an aeroplane or is in the water and isn’t a boat.”


surprisedsmile


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Heavy Weather 2013
26 January 2020 08:57:28
It’s been confirmed this morning that the incubation period of the virus appears to be between 1-14 days and a host will be contagious during this time.

It’s is now becoming clear that this virus is now totally out of control in China. Numerous sources saying number of infected is much higher.

The government here now need to consider grounding all transports to and from China

Person to Person transmission has not happened yet in any other part of the world. If this remains the case the WHO will not IMHO raise the alert level.
Mark
Beckton, E London
Less than 500m from the end of London City Airport runway.
The Beast from the East
26 January 2020 10:28:30



The government here now need to consider grounding all transports to and from China

Originally Posted by: Heavy Weather 2013 


Not possible considering how important China is in the global economy. 


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Joe Bloggs
26 January 2020 10:47:24

A doctor treating patients suffering from the new virus has died after catching it.

This has two implications: first, the virus can kill apparently fit and healthy people, which is a concern, and second it suggests possible failings in protective measures being used.

Some experts are suggesting that the Chinese authorities have been too secretive and too slow to step up containment measures. Even now their censors are stamping down on reports in social media - and state-controlled media is playing down coverage.

Overall this remains predominantly a problem for China rather than the world but the underlying issues are a concern: it would appear that the failings when SARS broke out around 15 years ago still remain.

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


Good to see you still posting Gandalf 😉! 


Try and keep Singapore nice and predominantly disease free until at least Friday! ;-) 



Manchester City Centre, 31m ASL

Gandalf The White
26 January 2020 11:13:27


 


Not possible considering how important China is in the global economy. 


Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


You sound like Donald Trump, putting the economy above every other consideration.


Given the cost to the Chinese authorities of trying to put the proverbial cat back in the bag, that's not a very sensible approach, with all due respect.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Gandalf The White
26 January 2020 11:17:42


 


Good to see you still posting Gandalf 😉! 


Try and keep Singapore nice and predominantly disease free until at least Friday! ;-) 


Originally Posted by: Joe Bloggs 


So far so good, Joe.


More people than usual wearing masks and the pharmacies seem to have run out of hand sanitiser gel, so bring some with you!


 


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Gandalf The White
26 January 2020 13:49:25

Some experts are now saying that the outbreak is now effectively out of control in China, given the new information about its ability to spread before symptoms appear. Further, that although the mortality rate seems to be around 3% (i.e. Worse than the Spanish Flu outbreak), the number of deaths is likely considerably to exceed the SARS pandemic,simply because of the likely far greater infection rate.

I fear that this is rapidly turning into the potential catastrophe that epidemiologists have long predicted if one of these animal viruses mutated in the 'right' way and made the jump to humans. The Chinese authorities are going to be tested severely in the coming weeks.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


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