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Chunky Pea
27 January 2020 10:34:46


 


I know exactly what I read


”Never ceases to amaze me how those that talk of 'over-population' never really include their own existence in that.”


I repeat my comment.  Feel free to respond without avoiding the point.


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


You are not making any point. Only looking for someone to gripe at.


.. by assuming that my assumption is wrong, without ever stating why... 


Current Conditions
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"You don't have to know anything to have an opinion"
--Roger P, 12/Oct/2022
The Beast from the East
27 January 2020 10:42:33


 


Never ceases to amaze me how those that talk of 'over-population' never really include their own existence in that. 


Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea 


When I get old and unable to look after myself, I would be more than happy to be euthanised or I will take myself out rather than have some stranger wipe my arse in a care home


Over population issues tend to resolve themselves naturally. In the case of Sao Paolo in the Packham documentary, they are running out of water, and in other cases, illness and ethnic violence will also keep the human population under control


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Northern Sky
27 January 2020 10:42:37


 


Isn't that the point MM was making?  We have loaded the dice to ensure we are perpetual winners.  I know we disagree but that cannot continue indefinitely.


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


Precisely. 


How long that will continue neither you or I know. 

DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
27 January 2020 10:46:22


 


But within rich countries, the poor still have more children - its mostly to do with levels of female education and empowerment. 


Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


And having someone to look after you in old age, instead of saving for  a pension


And to ensure that you family does survive in the face of 50% infant mortality (as was the case in some places in Britain only 200 years ago)


War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

Chichester 12m asl
Northern Sky
27 January 2020 10:49:20


 


When I get old and unable to look after myself, I would be more than happy to be euthanised or I will take myself out rather than have some stranger wipe my arse in a care home


Over population issues tend to resolve themselves naturally. In the case of Sao Paolo in the Packham documentary, they are running out of water, and in other cases, illness and ethnic violence will also keep the human population under control


Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


That's always been the case though. Overpopulation a thousand or a hundred years ago meant a situation where there were significantly fewer people than today.


The thing that has changed is the ability of people to 'load the dice in our favour'. It may well be that at some point we reach what has been called the Great Filter - but the arguments about overpopulation are exactly the same arguments being put forward when the Earth had a population of millions rather than billions. 

eastcoaster
27 January 2020 10:51:35
Birth rates are sinking like a stone across the world with the notable exception of Afica and the Middle East. The irony is a shrinking labour force and the falling consumption that goes with it will become a an ever increasing issue towards the end of the 20's right at the same time as global heating.

Whatever your political slant, it is a perfect storm.
Chunky Pea
27 January 2020 10:51:57


 


When I get old and unable to look after myself, I would be more than happy to be euthanised or I will take myself out rather than have some stranger wipe my arse in a care home


Over population issues tend to resolve themselves naturally. In the case of Sao Paolo in the Packham documentary, they are running out of water, and in other cases, illness and ethnic violence will also keep the human population under control


Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


This alone is a good argument for blood ties and 'traditional' family units, in that the older mind the younger, and vice versa. As for your second paragraph, you are falling into MM's right wing (clap) trap of seeing human beings as nothing more than a sort of bacteria. 


 


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"You don't have to know anything to have an opinion"
--Roger P, 12/Oct/2022
The Beast from the East
27 January 2020 10:57:41


 


 you are falling into MM's right wing trap of seeing human beings as nothing more than a sort of bacteria. 


 


Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea 


Humans are no different to any other animal. the difference is that our superior intelligence means we can directly impact and damage the planet. It also means we can create the technology that can reverse that damage, but that's a political choice


 


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Chunky Pea
27 January 2020 11:03:39


 


Humans are no different to any other animal. the difference is that our superior intelligence means we can directly impact and damage the planet. It also means we can create the technology that can reverse that damage, but that's a political choice


 


Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


Seems odd that in this day and age, we are more concerned about the health of the climate than we are with the health and well-being of humanity. What an utterly soulless world we have become. 


Current Conditions
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"You don't have to know anything to have an opinion"
--Roger P, 12/Oct/2022
Saint Snow
27 January 2020 11:19:41


 


Seems odd that in this day and age, we are more concerned about the health of the climate than we are with the health and well-being of humanity. What an utterly soulless world we have become. 


Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea 


 


It's more a combination of 1) a broader appreciation that humans are but one of billions of species, and we should have an understanding of the impacts of our actions on them; and 2) a realisation that the effects of CC will negatively impact on our way of life


Protecting our own future, along with not causing the destruction of other species is hardly 'more soulless'.


 



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Saint Snow
27 January 2020 11:22:09

Anyway, a Scottish friend of mine has a wife whose family originates from China. To show solidarity with the situation over there but also recognising the Scottish culture, their having a party to celebrate both the Chinese New Year and Burns Night. They're calling it Chinese Burns Night.


I wasn't going to go, but they twisted my arm.


 


 



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Roger Parsons
27 January 2020 11:33:25


There is a point here - we have disturbed the balance of nature by our ingenuity. The biggest problem we face is one of over population - too many people for nature to support. In the "good old days", nature kept a balance - fecundity versus pestilence and disease - human populations were largely held in balance for millennia as baby production and mortality more or less matched each other.


Our modern ability to identify causes of disease and to prevent disease, has upset the old balance. If humanity is to have a future where we can live long lives unmolested by viruses and bacteria, then we need to control the fecundity side of the equation by balancing baby production with deaths. In the advanced world, this has been more or less achieved, since wealthy people prefer to divert all their resources into raising one or two offspring, rather than in having a large litter. Unfortunately, for both cultural and economic reasons, poor countries produce an over supply of offspring, leading to all the issues of over population and attendant environmental calamity.


Nature will sort us out one way or another, if we don't remedy the problem ourselves. The key aims of foreign aid for example, should be education and family planning.


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


I wrote: "Yes - they* were spoilt for choice, NS - no wimpy antibiotics or bed blocking." [*People in Tudor times.]


I was indeed making a point, MM - but through irony. 


I put it to you that pandemics are an imprecise way of "capping" population. The riskier your own existence, the more likely you will have more offspring - it's playing the odds and preparing for your old age. "Culling by disease" simply means that humans will be selected for their ability to show or develop immunity. If the infecting agent loses virulence, that too will make it less effective. The crutch of antibiotics and antivirals may help survival short term, but longer term carries its own risks.


Re bed blocking - I am sure that most of us would want our older or infirm family members to have a decent, agreeable old age, but more importantly, when the time eventually comes for them to go that needs, if possible, to be decent and compassionate too. I'd wish that for everyone, and for myself.


Key questions are:


How many children is it reasonable to have?


[I have none. My parents had 2, grandparents 4, great grandparents 8 - there's your pattern.]


What is your view on "end of life" options for the infirm, elderly, or yourself in particular?


I've already written my own "Advance Decision". Have you? No time like the present.


Roger


 


 


 


 


RogerP
West Lindsey district of Lincolnshire
Everything taken together, here in Lincolnshire are more good things than man could have had the conscience to ask.
William Cobbett, in his Rural Rides - c.1830
Roger Parsons
27 January 2020 11:36:41


Anyway, a Scottish friend of mine has a wife whose family originates from China. To show solidarity with the situation over there but also recognising the Scottish culture, their having a party to celebrate both the Chinese New Year and Burns Night. They're calling it Chinese Burns Night.


I wasn't going to go, but they twisted my arm.


Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 



RogerP
West Lindsey district of Lincolnshire
Everything taken together, here in Lincolnshire are more good things than man could have had the conscience to ask.
William Cobbett, in his Rural Rides - c.1830
xioni2
27 January 2020 11:38:12



I fear that this is rapidly turning into the potential catastrophe that epidemiologists have long predicted if one of these animal viruses mutated in the 'right' way and made the jump to humans. 


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


It depends on the definition I guess, but so far there is little evidence for the above. We are still far from a worst case scenario and this could well end being less bad than SARS. It does look like it will get worse though in the next few weeks.


A truly apocalyptic global pandemic would have some interesting consequences. Let's say it wipes out a third of the global population, it would help with global warming, immigration and the 'neoliberal' model. Something for both the populist right and populist left to unite for?  


 

Roger Parsons
27 January 2020 11:49:17


It depends on the definition I guess, but so far there is little evidence for the above. We are still far from a worst case scenario and this could well end being less bad than SARS. It does look like it will get worse though in the next few weeks.


A truly apocalyptic global pandemic would have some interesting consequences. Let's say it wipes out a third of the global population, it would help with global warming, immigration and the 'neoliberal' model. Something for both the populist right and populist left to unite for?  


Originally Posted by: xioni2 


Measles - a lesson from history? This is how a novel infectious disease behaves in a vulnerable population.


With some maths for the meteorologists to enjoy. At least read the abstract.


Rapid mortality transition of Pacific Islands in the 19th century


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5197612/


Roger


RogerP
West Lindsey district of Lincolnshire
Everything taken together, here in Lincolnshire are more good things than man could have had the conscience to ask.
William Cobbett, in his Rural Rides - c.1830
Chunky Pea
27 January 2020 12:06:33


What is your view on "end of life" options for the infirm, elderly, or yourself in particular?


Roger


Originally Posted by: Roger Parsons 


Family tradition dictates that I will die sometime between mid-50s or early 60s mark, so young enough to not be totally incapacitated and a 'burden' to others within the family unit, and in fairness it is not something I would like to become if at the off-chance that that tradition is broken, so I can see Beast's earlier point to some extent. 


Current Conditions
https://t.ly/MEYqg 


"You don't have to know anything to have an opinion"
--Roger P, 12/Oct/2022
ozone_aurora
27 January 2020 12:09:49


 


I wrote: "Yes - they* were spoilt for choice, NS - no wimpy antibiotics or bed blocking." [*People in Tudor times.]


I was indeed making a point, MM - but through irony. 


I put it to you that pandemics are an imprecise way of "capping" population. The riskier your own existence, the more likely you will have more offspring - it's playing the odds and preparing for your old age. "Culling by disease" simply means that humans will be selected for their ability to show or develop immunity. If the infecting agent loses virulence, that too will make it less effective. The crutch of antibiotics and antivirals may help survival short term, but longer term carries its own risks.


Re bed blocking - I am sure that most of us would want our older or infirm family members to have a decent, agreeable old age, but more importantly, when the time eventually comes for them to go that needs, if possible, to be decent and compassionate too. I'd wish that for everyone, and for myself.


Key questions are:


How many children is it reasonable to have?


[I have none. My parents had 2, grandparents 4, great grandparents 8 - there's your pattern.]


What is your view on "end of life" options for the infirm, elderly, or yourself in particular?


I've already written my own "Advance Decision". Have you? No time like the present.


Roger


 


 


 


 


Originally Posted by: Roger Parsons 



Not sure if this is the right post to place my thought, but would like to add that killer diseases don't alway kill some & leave others to survive, but can also leave sequelae in survivors, which can be permanent, e.g., various disabilities from Streptococcus, Sars & Ebola (unfortunately, haven't got time to add examples at the moment).

Ulric
27 January 2020 12:25:48

We have so much to look forward to.


 


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_persecutions_during_the_Black_Death


 


To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection. - Henri Poincaré
westv
27 January 2020 12:53:59

I always look to TWO forums to give me a boost of happiness on grim Monday mornings.


 


 



At least it will be mild!
eastcoaster
27 January 2020 12:56:28


We have so much to look forward to.


 


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_persecutions_during_the_Black_Death


 


Originally Posted by: Ulric 

The early days of corbynism?

xioni2
27 January 2020 13:20:27
Gandalf The White
27 January 2020 14:27:51


 


You are not making any point. Only looking for someone to gripe at.


.. by assuming that my assumption is wrong, without ever stating why... 


Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea 


Maybe you EE doesn't to stop and think a little more. This latest obfuscation is wrong on three points: pretty impressive even by your wayward standards.



  1. I was making a point; if you missed it then it's your probelm

  2. I wasn't having a gripe

  3. I didn't say your assumption was wrong; I said you had no basis for making it.


You could always just go away and leave the adults to discuss this subject calmly instead of offering up your usual wayward contribution.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Gandalf The White
27 January 2020 14:35:01


 


Seems odd that in this day and age, we are more concerned about the health of the climate than we are with the health and well-being of humanity. What an utterly soulless world we have become. 


Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea 


Where has this come from?  Oh, wait a minute, it's CP again...


 


Since when was this a 'either/or' (either climate or health and well-being)?


That aside, if we don't address the climate issue then it will affect human health and well-being.  


 


Your capacity for disappearing down an rabbit hole of total irrelevance is remarkable.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Chunky Pea
27 January 2020 15:04:59


 


Maybe you EE doesn't to stop and think a little more. This latest obfuscation is wrong on three points: pretty impressive even by your wayward standards.



  1. I was making a point; if you missed it then it's your probelm

  2. I wasn't having a gripe

  3. I didn't say your assumption was wrong; I said you had no basis for making it.


You could always just go away and leave the adults to discuss this subject calmly instead of offering up your usual wayward contribution.


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


 


'Maybe you EE'? I'm not quite sure what that means.


But..


(1) It wasn't a point you were making, but something a little more pointless than that. 


(2) You are always have a gripe, especially when interacting with moi. But no matter.


(3) You didn't say I had no basis for making it either. You basically said nothing at all. 


I could just go away, but I still stand by my point, in that talk of 'over population' always seems to come from those whose own existence and well-being is assured and well catered for. The world is big and bountiful enough for everyone and more and you or MM do not get to decide that it isn't. The real problem is how the collective 'we' manage this world we are given. 


Current Conditions
https://t.ly/MEYqg 


"You don't have to know anything to have an opinion"
--Roger P, 12/Oct/2022
Chunky Pea
27 January 2020 15:09:41


That aside, if we don't address the climate issue then it will affect human health and well-being.  


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


Maybe climate change is just one way that nature will balance out that problem that you and MM are talking about. You seem to want it both ways. 


 


Current Conditions
https://t.ly/MEYqg 


"You don't have to know anything to have an opinion"
--Roger P, 12/Oct/2022

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