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Brian Gaze
27 November 2023 12:14:12
I'm adding short GEFS charts which go out to t+192 like the one below. They'll appear earlier and can be blended more easily with the MOGREPS-G data.

UserPostedImage
Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
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"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Gusty
27 November 2023 12:24:01
Back to first principles there is some very significant and favourably aligned warm air advection sky rocketing towards 80N at the moment.

https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/topkarten.php?map=1&model=gfs&var=2&time=0&run=6&lid=OP&h=0&mv=0&tr=6 
 
Steve - Folkestone, Kent
Current conditions from my Davis Vantage Vue
https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/IFOLKE11 
Join Kent Weather on Facebook.
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fairweather
27 November 2023 12:39:02
It's looking like a 5-6 day cold snap to me for most, starting on Thursday. Perhaps two or three days with potential for low level snow early on but nothing too much to get excited about - other than it's not mild!
S.Essex, 42m ASL
doctormog
27 November 2023 13:08:45

It's looking like a 5-6 day cold snap to me for most, starting on Thursday. Perhaps two or three days with potential for low level snow early on but nothing too much to get excited about - other than it's not mild!

Originally Posted by: fairweather 



Yes at present aside from the probable (at least) week long cold snap and snow potential there's not much to get excited about. In fact getting excited about that should probably not be permitted either.

I look forward to the time I can see more mild and wet weather in the realistic timescale. 😇 
Gandalf The White
27 November 2023 13:32:48

I think that's a very sensible thing to do at the moment, Peter. 👍

The only things that concerns me ever so slightly is that IIRC, GFS was the first model or at any rate one of the first to pick up on this week's cold snap. I only hope that it isn't as accurate this time with what it is showing for later next week and beyond, but we shall see.

Originally Posted by: David M Porter 



Hi David, I think our perceptions of GFS are skewed by the fact that we see four runs per day v two from the other main models, plus the vast amount of data.  I know there’s a view that GFS ‘picks up’ on things earlier but I’m not convinced there’s any actual substance to that.

Even this cold spell hasn’t evolved as predicted. There was a nice clean northerly predicted with mid-Atlantic blocking as well as the high pressure towards Greenland, then the little disturbance in mid-Atlantic was detected and the mid-Atlantic block faded away from the model runs.

As we say every winter, whatever long wave pattern might be predicted, with reasonable accuracy, it’s the short wave evolution that can make or break it.
Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Crepuscular Ray
27 November 2023 13:34:08

Yes at present aside from the probable (at least) week long cold snap and snow potential there's not much to get excited about. In fact getting excited about that should probably not be permitted either.

I look forward to the time I can see more mild and wet weather in the realistic timescale. 😇 

Originally Posted by: doctormog 



😂😂😂
Jerry
Edinburgh, in the frost hollow below Blackford Hill
Saint Snow
27 November 2023 14:21:07

Yes at present aside from the probable (at least) week long cold snap and snow potential there's not much to get excited about. In fact getting excited about that should probably not be permitted either.

I look forward to the time I can see more mild and wet weather in the realistic timescale. 😇 

Originally Posted by: doctormog 




I think the point is that, given past experiences, a week-long cold spell (and this forthcoming one is hardly forecast to be anything majorly cold anyway) so often gives way to mild/wet gunk for a few/several weeks. Given the time of year - and with memories of 2009/10 still fresh (for some 😉) - it's understandable to fear that this Xmas will be just another drab write-off (and I'm not talking about my mistletoe success rate!)

Looking at the GFS6z, it's encouraging to see [around t+264] energy sliding underneath the block. The next low more disrupts against the ScEuro block (with the UK the wrong side of the battle line). But it's not a great looking run for sustained cold (nor a great general set-up for MBY)

I'm on a downer today WRT the weather prospects. I hope my gut is wrong.



 

Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Roger Parsons
27 November 2023 14:30:58

I think the point is that, given past experiences, a week-long cold spell (and this forthcoming one is hardly forecast to be anything majorly cold anyway) so often gives way to mild/wet gunk for a few/several weeks. Given the time of year - and with memories of 2009/10 still fresh (for some 😉) - it's understandable to fear that this Xmas will be just another drab write-off (and I'm not talking about my mistletoe success rate!)
Looking at the GFS6z, it's encouraging to see [around t+264] energy sliding underneath the block. The next low more disrupts against the ScEuro block (with the UK the wrong side of the battle line). But it's not a great looking run for sustained cold (nor a great general set-up for MBY)
I'm on a downer today WRT the weather prospects. I hope my gut is wrong.

Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 

Earlier projections for snow here have mostly faded from forecasts, Saint. Nevertheless it feels mighty cold today and folks already having trouble funding their heating will have to make difficult decisions. It was very wet here this morning - lots of surface water on the roads and fields - the ground is saturated. See:
Lincolnshire flood risk increased by groundwater level - expert
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-67524261 
RogerP
West Lindsey district of Lincolnshire
Everything taken together, here in Lincolnshire are more good things than man could have had the conscience to ask.
William Cobbett, in his Rural Rides - c.1830
Rob K
27 November 2023 14:37:32

Back to first principles there is some very significant and favourably aligned warm air advection sky rocketing towards 80N at the moment.

https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/topkarten.php?map=1&model=gfs&var=2&time=0&run=6&lid=OP&h=0&mv=0&tr=6 
 

Originally Posted by: Gusty 


Looking purely at that chart you would think something was brewing.... 

ARPEGE 6Z is still quite bullish on some snow showers for the south - it has moved the low further south on Thursday which means frontal snow misses us but it does bring in more of an easterly. I wouldn't expect anything to settle but some southerners might see the first flake of the season before November is out. (Just!)

UserPostedImage 
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Saint Snow
27 November 2023 15:05:42
The 'crowning turd in the water pipe' now is this coming weekend. 

We're taking my mum out for her birthday (she'll be 82, is frail, and has Alzheimers). A Christmas market then for a Sunday lunch. Since Sunday appeared on the BBC website weather, it's been 100% dry. Wed/Thur have for the past few days, been showing sleet.

Today, with the tweaks to the overall set-up? Both Saturday and Sunday being forecasted to be showery. And Wed/Thur bone dry.

Just great.


(for balance, the Met Office forecast is still showing dry)

Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
picturesareme
27 November 2023 15:05:53

Looking purely at that chart you would think something was brewing.... 

ARPEGE 6Z is still quite bullish on some snow showers for the south - it has moved the low further south on Thursday which means frontal snow misses us but it does bring in more of an easterly. I wouldn't expect anything to settle but some southerners might see the first flake of the season before November is out. (Just!)

UserPostedImage 

Originally Posted by: Rob K 



Haven't seen flakes of snow falling down here in years, and the last time I remember any snow actually settling was back in March 2018
Quantum
27 November 2023 15:31:24
Here is a general tip for those of you who want to know more than a few days in advance (when we have the great high res models) whether snow showers (lake effect) will likely hit your area. This is what you should do.

- Firstly establish that the airmass is cold enough, it should be at least 13C colder at 850hpa than it is at the surface. This requirement is almost always met for almost always any cold outbreak.

- Secondly do the isobars point towards you from the coast? For example if your nearest coast is facing NW then NWerly winds are your safest bet. The stronger the winds the more inland penetration.

- Is there any directional/speed wind shear? The easiest way to establish this is look at your standard 500hpa height/SLP charts. Do the isobars roughly align with the height contours. If they do not, then showers are unlikely I'm afraid.

- Is there sufficient moisture? The answer to this question should be yes if the fetch is good, and the above criteria are met upstream. But you can check by looking at something like 700hpa humidity. You want it to be high (>70%)

- Does friction/orography play a major role? If showers rain out over the sea then there is something called absolute instability , what this means is that showers are likely to remain in their cluster type formats which some slight intensification over coastal regions followed by weakening as they move further inland. However if there is a thin stable layer somewhere that stops showers from raining out over sea you can get continuous precip (though it tends to be lighter) when friction/orography provides that little bit of lift needed. The shape of the coast also matters. If the wind hits convex or concave bits of land you ramp up the convergence even more; this tends to focus convection into streams and dries out the surroundings.
 
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
squish
27 November 2023 15:49:18
Excellent 12z ICON…. But Thursdays low misses to the south and what’s the betting the weekend one will too ! 

Overall pattern looks pretty stable though 
D.E.W on Dartmoor. 300m asl
Quantum
27 November 2023 15:52:03

Excellent 12z ICON…. But Thursdays low misses to the south and what’s the betting the weekend one will too ! 

Overall pattern looks pretty stable though 

Originally Posted by: squish 



Lake effect snow can give far bigger totals anyway. The worst thing is being in that dry slot just north of any front. That's almost always where I find myself! Now, on the other hand with the low so far south, the dry slot is across the midlands and my area is firmly in lake effect zone.
 
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Quantum
27 November 2023 16:02:26
UserPostedImage
Wow, this kind of thing would absolutely fill the entire region of northern England; east of the pennines, with heavy, potentially thundery snow showers. Huge potential here.

 
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Ally Pally Snowman
27 November 2023 16:15:15

UserPostedImage
Wow, this kind of thing would absolutely fill the entire region of northern England; east of the pennines, with heavy, potentially thundery snow showers. Huge potential here.

 

Originally Posted by: Quantum 



That's an absolute beauty from UKMO.  -6c 850s aswell so probably cold enough for most.
 
Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Saint Snow
27 November 2023 16:24:18

Wow, this kind of thing would absolutely fill the entire region of northern England; east of the pennines, with heavy, potentially thundery snow showers. Huge potential here.

 

Originally Posted by: Quantum 




See, here's my issue...

😒

Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Quantum
27 November 2023 16:24:36

That's an absolute beauty from UKMO.  -6c 850s aswell so probably cold enough for most.
 

Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 



Unfortunately less potential on the others, still plenty of snow showers; but not as good as UKMO.
 
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Gusty
27 November 2023 16:29:33
Hang on...surely we should be looking at -9c's and -10's at sea level before we can get excited about snow streamers ?

This set up looks more like a -7c set up with the odd pocket of -8c ? More conducive to cold rain showers and some elevation transient wintriness at best.
Steve - Folkestone, Kent
Current conditions from my Davis Vantage Vue
https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/IFOLKE11 
Join Kent Weather on Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/stevewall69/ 



Quantum
27 November 2023 16:29:41

See, here's my issue...

😒

Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 



Relax the wind goes north westerly by Saturday, plenty of potential for everyone.
 
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Quantum
27 November 2023 16:34:38

Hang on...surely we should be looking at -9c's and -10's at sea level before we can get excited about snow streamers ?

This set up looks more like a -7c set up with the odd pocket of -8c ? More conducive to cold rain showers and some elevation transient wintriness at best.

Originally Posted by: Gusty 



Unfortunately I think you are right for kent.

But for us further north the thermodynamic profile is quite favourable (>10 miles inland) despite the marginal 850s
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Whiteout
27 November 2023 16:42:01
Some tasty looking charts out this afternoon, looking pretty cold for the foreseeable, after that who knows, but no mild now showing till over a week away which I will take for now.

 
Home/Work - Dartmoor
240m/785 ft asl
fairweather
27 November 2023 16:42:40

Yes at present aside from the probable (at least) week long cold snap and snow potential there's not much to get excited about. In fact getting excited about that should probably not be permitted either.

I look forward to the time I can see more mild and wet weather in the realistic timescale. 😇 

Originally Posted by: doctormog 


?? I do hope you are not trying to be provocative about a perfectly reasonable comment based on the current ensembles. If you see otherwise just put forward what different scenario you see in the models. That would be fine with me. Only I am currently seeing a 5-6 day winter cold snap with the risk of snow ,as I said.
S.Essex, 42m ASL
The Beast from the East
27 November 2023 16:43:36



Overall pattern looks pretty stable though 

Originally Posted by: squish 



For a week or so, and then normal service resumes. Almost a carbon copy of last year but a week earlier. And we had the same debates then about whether the cold would return. It never did of course and the same will probably happen again this year. So make the most of what is left of winter!
 
"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
David M Porter
27 November 2023 16:47:26

For a week or so, and then normal service resumes. Almost a carbon copy of last year but a week earlier. And we had the same debates then about whether the cold would return. It never did of course and the same will probably happen again this year. So make the most of what is left of winter!
 

Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 



On what model output is this view based on, just out of interest?
 
Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022

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