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doctormog
27 November 2023 16:56:33

On what model output is this view based on, just out of interest?
 

Originally Posted by: David M Porter 



I would guess the Telekinetic Research Online Longterm Latitudinal model? Sadly it’s not available to most of us.

Meanwhile the details of any snow this week are still, if you pardon the pun, somewhat up in the air. It will be interesting to see if we get more clarity on the synoptics beyond day 7 or 8 in the next couple of days.
MRayner
27 November 2023 17:09:05

For a week or so, and then normal service resumes. Almost a carbon copy of last year but a week earlier. And we had the same debates then about whether the cold would return. It never did of course and the same will probably happen again this year. So make the most of what is left of winter!
 

Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 



Is that the first “winter is over post “ before it’s actually started 😃😃
Location Whisky 🥃 country, Cragganmore ,Moray, 440 AMSL
White Meadows
27 November 2023 17:51:41

?? I do hope you are not trying to be provocative about a perfectly reasonable comment based on the current ensembles. If you see otherwise just put forward what different scenario you see in the models. That would be fine with me. Only I am currently seeing a 5-6 day winter cold snap with the risk of snow ,as I said.

Originally Posted by: fairweather 



Sadly I happen to agree with the Doc. A sleety affair with a quick return to westerlies for early December doesn’t really cut the mustard for the hardcore coldies. 


 
fullybhoy
27 November 2023 17:54:32

For a week or so, and then normal service resumes. Almost a carbon copy of last year but a week earlier. And we had the same debates then about whether the cold would return. It never did of course and the same will probably happen again this year. So make the most of what is left of winter!
 

Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 



Cheers for the outstanding analysis………i’ll see you all same time next year then and we’ll try again 
Aldo
Glasgow 165m/asl
 
Rob K
27 November 2023 18:09:33

Look at the French taking all our snow.

UserPostedImage 
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Brian Gaze
27 November 2023 18:22:12
The models are still shaping what happens after this colder spell. Therefore, I'm undecided whether we are seeing the late autumn kerfuffle or something different. What I would say is that in 2009 and 2010 it was reasonably confident at this point to be "confident" of the winters being colder than average. This year that is definitely not the case.
Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
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White Meadows
27 November 2023 18:31:16

Look at the French taking all our snow. 

Originally Posted by: Rob K 

Absolutely cracking start for the Alps… Gutted not to be going this year. I’ll have to make do with 2 weeks in Florida. 
 
White Meadows
27 November 2023 18:32:43

The models are still shaping what happens after this colder spell. Therefore, I'm undecided whether we are seeing the late autumn kerfuffle or something different. What I would say is that in 2009 and 2010 it was reasonably confident at this point to be "confident" of the winters being colder than average. This year that is definitely not the case.

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 

Undecided, unconvinced… must be wobbly up on that fence Brian
Surrey John
27 November 2023 18:37:00
Looking much colder than normal in the North Baltic, plenty of coastal sea ice (and it is still November)

Fairly relevant as looks like winds are towards UK from this area

https://www.smhi.se/oceanografi/istjanst/produkter/sstcolor.pdf 
 
Bradford on Avon, Wiltshire
35m ASL
David M Porter
27 November 2023 18:46:51

The models are still shaping what happens after this colder spell. Therefore, I'm undecided whether we are seeing the late autumn kerfuffle or something different. What I would say is that in 2009 and 2010 it was reasonably confident at this point to be "confident" of the winters being colder than average. This year that is definitely not the case.

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 



IIRC, the 2010/11 winter was colder than average overall purely as a result of the month-long freeze in December. There was a little more snow in my neck of the woods in early January 2011, but after that there was precious little, if any, wintry weather in my area that I can recall during the rest of January and through February. From what I remember of it, I think the same was the case in the rest of the UK too. The cold spells the previous winter seemed to be spread through the duration of the winter much more than was the case in the 10/11 winter.

As you say Brian, it would go either way at the moment, but at least we have some interesting model output to observe right now instead of the dross that we have witnessed at the start of so many recent winters.
Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
Ally Pally Snowman
27 November 2023 18:53:58
Cold ECM 12z all the way to day 10. Decent snow event on Sunday as well. 

 
Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
White Meadows
27 November 2023 18:56:13

Looking much colder than normal in the North Baltic, plenty of coastal sea ice (and it is still November)

Fairly relevant as looks like winds are towards UK from this area

https://www.smhi.se/oceanografi/istjanst/produkter/sstcolor.pdf 
 

Originally Posted by: Surrey John 


Thanks for sharing that link. ‘Rotten’ ice whatever that is… how strange 
Gusty
27 November 2023 18:57:08
Should we be getting excited?
We're talking an Arctic High ridging down to Svalbard with -25's/-30 pushing down on its eastern flank 80's stylie.

https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/topkarten.php?map=1&model=ecm&var=2&time=216&run=12&lid=OP&h=0&mv=0&tr=24 
Steve - Folkestone, Kent
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doctormog
27 November 2023 18:57:37

?? I do hope you are not trying to be provocative about a perfectly reasonable comment based on the current ensembles. If you see otherwise just put forward what different scenario you see in the models. That would be fine with me. Only I am currently seeing a 5-6 day winter cold snap with the risk of snow ,as I said.

Originally Posted by: fairweather 



Not at all, in the same way as you were not trying to be condescending.

Anyway the point is that we can get excited about the weather on a weather enthusiasts’ forum. It’s not immaturity or lack of objectivity no matter how much that is insinuated.  

The model output is fascinating and uncertain just now. The outlook beyond the next week or so is very much uncertain. The higher probability would be a return to something closer to average after the colder than average wintry type weather, bearing in mind it is both meteorological and astronomical autumn as I write this. 

One look at that standard deviation in the ensembles in both t850hPa and 500hPa terms shows that uncertainty, more so than is often the case. Call it FI if you wish. The bottom line is there are hints in “FI” but in a probability game there are other realistic albeit lesser probabilities. If you can’t see that just look at the ECM 12z output. 

On a final note, people get excited about the prospect of snow, it’s not wrong or something to be patronising about.
Ally Pally Snowman
27 November 2023 19:00:22
Hints of a Scandi high again day 10 ECM. 

 
Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Chichesterweatherfan2
27 November 2023 19:10:13

For a week or so, and then normal service resumes. Almost a carbon copy of last year but a week earlier. And we had the same debates then about whether the cold would return. It never did of course and the same will probably happen again this year. So make the most of what is left of winter!
 

Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 



what a ridiculous post, Beast! Of course mild weather will inevitably return ..and it may return next week, but just watched Darren Bett’s forecast…for the week ahead and into next week and he said…‘staying cold for the foreseeable future’…No mention of major snow mind you…but if we end up with bright cold days and frosty nights, I for one won’t be complaining! 
Charmhills
27 November 2023 19:12:15

Should we be getting excited?
We're talking an Arctic High ridging down to Svalbard with -25's/-30 pushing down on its eastern flank 80's stylie.

https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/topkarten.php?map=1&model=ecm&var=2&time=216&run=12&lid=OP&h=0&mv=0&tr=24 

Originally Posted by: Gusty 



And by 240hs;

https://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/ECMOPNH12_240_2.png 

NH view.🌬
Loughborough, EM.

Knowledge is power, ignorance is weakness.

Duane.
ballamar
27 November 2023 19:16:28

And by 240hs;

https://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/ECMOPNH12_240_2.png 

NH view.🌬

Originally Posted by: Charmhills 


problem is the high looks like migrating to Europe with some pressure from the jet! Would love the 80’s Scandi high to stay strong and get the lows sliding !
jhall
27 November 2023 19:17:54

Hints of a Scandi high again day 10 ECM. 

 

Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 


I'd say that pressure of 1045mb over northern Scandinavia is rather more than a hint. 🙂
 
Cranleigh, Surrey
Ally Pally Snowman
27 November 2023 19:21:48

I'd say that pressure of 1045mb over northern Scandinavia is rather more than a hint. 🙂
 

Originally Posted by: jhall 



Yes lol.
Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Gooner
27 November 2023 19:36:52

   https://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf/runs/2023112712/ECH1-240.GIF?27-0

   10 day deep deep into FI but a chart full of hope 


    

 
Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Rob K
27 November 2023 19:47:56

Hints of a Scandi high again day 10 ECM. 

 

Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 


Indeed not bad, although we would need the high pressure to our southwest to do one in order to benefit.
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
White Meadows
27 November 2023 19:58:40

Indeed not bad, although we would need the high pressure to our southwest to do one in order to benefit.

Originally Posted by: Rob K 


True, but at what point does the low to our SW become a low? …baring in mind it’s central core will be lower than the FI ‘Scandi’ ..??
CField
27 November 2023 20:05:21
Yes and I think this situation is the biggest contributary cause of us missing out on another cold winter possibly...

Indeed not bad, although we would need the high pressure to our southwest to do one in order to benefit.

Originally Posted by: Rob K 


Favourite snowstorm
Famous channel low
Dec 31st 1978
Hastings East Sussex
Foot of level snow severe drifting
Next day max temp -4 degrees Celsius
The Beast from the East
27 November 2023 20:25:38
EC op is supported by the 10 day mean. But UK misses out on the fun.  but can jet allow the pattern to move north west a bit, we live in hope I suppose
 
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