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DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
15 November 2024 07:22:16
WX temps show a degree or two below norm for most of NW Europe this week, and although the bloc of cold air over Russia and the east firms up in week 2 , it doesn't get to the far west i.e. Spain, France and Britain (exc N Scotland which does get a taste of freezing). Rain, snow in the north?, for Atlantic coasts (and some in the balkans) in week 1, then a lot more for Britain, France and Germany in week 2.

GFS Op 0z - has retreated from its ultra-cold predictions of a week ago. The N-lies set in on Sun 17th but mainly down the N Sea, not affecting W Britain, though they are souped up by a Channel runner reaching Dover 1000mb Tue 19th and another LP across N France 990mb Thu 21st. But all is cleared away by LP approaching from the SW and deepening markedly 960mb W Ireland Mon 25th, milder but not ultra-mild. This fills and slowly drifts across Britain to reach C Europe Sun 1st leaving a narrow ridge for HP behind.

ECM - the channel runner from the 19th merges with the main LP, 970mb Denmark Wed 20th ensuring a more consistent run of N-lies but even so the Atlantic revives from the SW Mon 25th, more tentatively than shown on GFS

GEM - resembles ECM. If anything the early N-lies on Sun 17th are held further east

GEFS - in the S, cold (5C below norm) 17th - 23rd with a mild blip coinciding with heavy rain on Tue 19th.  Heavy rain sets in later than shown yesterday, after Sat 23rd (but earlier in far SW), with the mean abruptly recovering to norm though conceals ens members from 5C below (incl control) to 10C above (incl op). Variation in the N is that the temp recovers to mean more slowly (very slowly in far N), and rain is less heavy at that time.

War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

Chichester 12m asl
nsrobins
15 November 2024 08:35:05
Am I allowed to say it’s all a little underwhelming but that’s understandable as the reality hardly ever mirrors the virtual solutions on offer, at any time of year. That said of course you should wait for the event to unfold before passing judgement and there is no doubt now that it’s going to get gradually and incrementally colder north to south as next week progresses with wintry ppn in places.
I like trying to outguess the weather with things like sliding shortwaves so the current situation is quite entertaining in a way but undoubtedly a headache for those who get paid to provide forecasts as somewhere at some point in the next 10 days will likely get a pasting. 

Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Brian Gaze
15 November 2024 08:44:58
One thing worth remembering with UKV / UKM Global is they have a tendency to over forecast heavy rain and under forecast light rain by fragmenting precipitation bands too much. Therefore, in an evaporative cooling situation they could (I suspect) overcook the potential for snow. Other models like GFS and GEM have their own issues with precipitation. Personally, I like Arpege for snow forecasting.
Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
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"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Hippydave
15 November 2024 09:51:12
GFS op a little on it's own in how it handles the mid term (albeit decent support in its ens) - looking at T168 it has a much flabbier Scandi trough and then goes on to spin up an active LP and erode the HP, whereas ECM and GEM have a less active LP and the HP has more influence for us accordingly. I'd guess UKMO would follow the ECM/GEM as it's very similar to them at the T168 point. 

Longer term the GFS op doesn't go all in on an Atlantic return despite the T240 chart, with a colder flow eventually re-establishing after the LP gradually fizzles and we end up with a chilly/cold HP and a stalling Atlantic. Again some support for colder air re-establishing in the ens (or not leaving at all for a few) but equally plenty of mild runs, suggesting a not unexpected amount of uncertainty. 

No great surprise re the uncertainty in the mid to long term I guess but strong confidence in a noticeable cool down with a cold northerly flow establishing with some snow around biased to the North and higher ground as usual. Thereafter uncertain with a return to mild and wet entirely possible, as is a more prolonged chilly spell or a milder blip and something of a chilly reboot/reset. More runs needed and all that but enough interest in the near term to catch the eye, more so if you're towards the top half of the country rather than the bottom! 

Re Brian's UKV comment I find it's good at giving a general idea of rain and shower distribution but definitely agree it makes rain bands look much more fragmented than they are - the MetO generally seem to have the rain in the same area as the UKV chart but presumably add shading to make it clear the rain will be more of a block than the raw output would suggest. 

Home: Tunbridge Wells
Work: Tonbridge
Martybhoy
15 November 2024 09:51:55
It’s now Friday so we are getting closer. Been reading this thread with increasing interest. IMBY the chase is on! According to good old IBM at least. 
We are a bit elevated and sheltered so normally we get about 2 degrees less than what’s here.
UserPostedImage 
200m above sea level
Rural East Ayrshire
Near to the village of Sorn
15 November 2024 10:00:44

A couple of days ago the weather apps had snow symbols and 4-5C early next week. Now it’s 10C on Monday and Tuesday followed by a couple of days of sunshine and 6C with temps down to about freezing overnight. 
The first of no doubt many occasions this winter where the models go off one before crashing back to reality…

Originally Posted by: Rob K 


Thats a pretty drastic switch. But well expected with these modern era northerlies.

Every thing delayed and shortened.
Berkshire
Brian Gaze
15 November 2024 10:07:26

Thats a pretty drastic switch. But well expected with these modern era northerlies.

Every thing delayed and shortened.

Originally Posted by: The Dub Version 



The switch is far more likely related to the data source being used.
Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
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"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Gandalf The White
15 November 2024 10:37:07

Thats a pretty drastic switch. But well expected with these modern era northerlies.

Every thing delayed and shortened.

Originally Posted by: The Dub Version 


I think it just says a lot about the limitations of weather apps which take the raw data from whatever op run they get their numbers.

I think it’s just mid-November today and wintry weather at this stage has always been rare and sustained cold even rarer. It has nothing to do with the ‘modern era’, whatever that is supposed to mean. 🙂
Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Gandalf The White
15 November 2024 10:39:03

The switch is far more likely related to the data source being used.

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


Exactly.  I have three weather apps on my phone and they seldom agree beyond a day or two.
Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


nsrobins
15 November 2024 10:44:47
UKM warnings issued - pretty decent positioning I’d say based on data we see and data we don’t (most of us anyway).
If you’re in the south watch out for later next week - a non zero chance of a major snowfall. If you’re in the north, you have things to contend with from Monday. If you’re far north then boots and scarfs will be required throughout.
Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Brian Gaze
15 November 2024 10:48:34

Today's ECM run is the textbook definition of an omega block.

Fascinating model watching, anyway, and I'll be very interested to see if other models can establish an omega block.

Originally Posted by: Retron 



Here's the extended part of the run.

UserPostedImage
Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
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"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Brian Gaze
15 November 2024 10:50:10
Can we stick to the model output in this thread.
Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Rob K
15 November 2024 11:17:51

Thats a pretty drastic switch. But well expected with these modern era northerlies.

Every thing delayed and shortened.

Originally Posted by: The Dub Version 


It certainly seems to be the case that weather models predict things too early - and the change (whether it be to hot or cold) arrives several days later than first modelled.

Anyway the iPhone app certainly doesn;t reflect modelling such as ECM or GEM, or GFS for that matter.

GFS has "forecasting nightmare" all over it at T 180-192, with very heavy rain/sleet/snow
 https://modeles2.meteociel.fr/modeles_gfs/runs/2024111506/186-779UK.GIF?15-6 
https://modeles2.meteociel.fr/modeles_gfs/runs/2024111506/192-779UK.GIF?15-6 


A bit of everything!
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Rob K
15 November 2024 11:24:54
The GFS 6Z is actually really quite bonkers for the south.

Friday 22: daytime max of 3C, heavy snow for a time, turning to rain
Saturday 23, early morning: 14C along the south coast with heavy rain, while just north of the M4 it is barely above freezing! https://modeles2.meteociel.fr/modeles_gfs/runs/2024111506/192-778UK.GIF?15-6 
UserPostedImage

Monday 25 - widely 15C across the south.
Wednesday 27 - back down to freezing with snow!
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
doctormog
15 November 2024 11:26:03
There may have been a "drastic switch" in some of the automated apps but there hasn't been a drastic switch in the body of the model output
Sasa
  • Sasa
  • Advanced Member
15 November 2024 11:28:51

It seems to me that the models are struggling with the high-pressure system off Iberia, which is trying to extend its influence further into  Europe. I’ve been monitoring the precipitation forecast for the Alps—it was initially expected to start on Sunday evening, then shifted to Monday, and now it’s been pushed to Tuesday. To my eye, it appears that the models are having difficulty with the setup beyond the 72-hour mark.
Kingston Upon Thames
doctormog
15 November 2024 11:35:35

It seems to me that the models are struggling with the high-pressure system off Iberia, which is trying to extend its influence further into  Europe. I’ve been monitoring the precipitation forecast for the Alps—it was initially expected to start on Sunday evening, then shifted to Monday, and now it’s been pushed to Tuesday. To my eye, it appears that the models are having difficulty with the setup beyond the 72-hour mark.

Originally Posted by: Sasa 


Yes the details are changing and will change on a local (i.e. UK wide not global/hemisphere level) in overall big picture. Such changes while small could have a significant impact on the conditions experienced when the time comes.
Ally Pally Snowman
15 November 2024 11:38:04

The GFS 6Z is actually really quite bonkers for the south.

Friday 22: daytime max of 3C, heavy snow for a time, turning to rain
Saturday 23, early morning: 14C along the south coast with heavy rain, while just north of the M4 it is barely above freezing! https://modeles2.meteociel.fr/modeles_gfs/runs/2024111506/192-778UK.GIF?15-6 
UserPostedImage

Monday 25 - widely 15C across the south.
Wednesday 27 - back down to freezing with snow!

Originally Posted by: Rob K 


That'll be the lying snow. ❄️.
https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/topkarten.php?map=20&model=gfs&var=25&run=6&time=189&lid=OP&h=0&mv=0&tr=3#mapref 

Also , more than a few hints in the ensembles of the cold spell being extended to the end of November. 


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Retron
15 November 2024 11:42:41

The GFS 6Z is actually really quite bonkers for the south.

Originally Posted by: Rob K 


And not just in the south - it's bonkers in the far north too. Look at the large area of negative double digits over the Highlands, unusual to see this early in the year. It's a perfect time for it, though... get some snow on the ground and a col and you'll get really low temperatures due to the lack of insolation. By then it's only a month away from the solstice after all!
Leysdown, north Kent
Rob K
15 November 2024 11:43:08
Some notably low overnight temps on the GFS - potential for a date record for 23 November (currently -12.2C)

Edit - yes, you beat me to it Darren. Later on in the run it goes down to -14 to -15 over the Highlands
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Retron
15 November 2024 11:49:53

Some notably low overnight temps on the GFS - potential for a date record for 23 November (currently -12.2C)

Edit - yes, you beat me to it Darren. Later on in the run it goes down to -14 to -15 over the Highlands

Originally Posted by: Rob K 


Great minds and all... 😂

The 0z run was none too warm either. One of the charts I've archived in years gone by is the temp4 one, here:

http://wxmaps.org/pix/temp4.png 

This morning's has two weeks of below zero temperatures over the Highlands. We've not seen that before this early in the year, and it's worth noting!

(The last time it happened was in November 2010, when the charts went from being chilly to exceptionally cold in the space of 3 days - on the 17th it was just looking cold, and by the 20th we had this... it only got colder after that, of course!)

https://ukwct.org.uk/weather/temp4.png 

UserPostedImage


Leysdown, north Kent
Taylor1740
15 November 2024 13:30:23
Looking at the latest GEFS it is now suggesting that it will stay cold for pretty much the rest of November for my area at least albeit with a slight warm up on next week's temperatures.
If correct it will be interesting to see what the CET ends up on as although we've had a warm first half of the month, I think we could still end up sub 6c overall.
NW Leeds - 150m amsl
nsrobins
15 November 2024 16:33:56
Very quiet in here this afternoon. Is it the lull before the storm, the hush before the snow or a general air of resignation that things are not quite going according to plan?
The next best thing to snow is a cold, frosty night and there'll be a few of those next week even if you don't see the white stuff.
Sorry OT.
Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Hippydave
15 November 2024 17:07:36

Very quiet in here this afternoon. Is it the lull before the storm, the hush before the snow or a general air of resignation that things are not quite going according to plan?
The next best thing to snow is a cold, frosty night and there'll be a few of those next week even if you don't see the white stuff.
Sorry OT.

Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


Well the GFS op is rather 'meh' in the medium and long term, although good for low heating bills I guess!

Looking at GEM and GFS at T201 they're very different, so more twists and turns likely. 

One thing to pick out amongst the noise that might be worth watching is the little feature that develops to our NE T80ish and then swings down over Scotland and down England, dying off as it does so. A variant is there on GEM too but if it persists it might bring a surprise or two before it dies away, depending on how much milder air it involves etc. 

I guess other than that it's worth noting Monday/Tuesdays feature is a touch snowier in terms of areas seeing falling snow at least, with a definite back edge effort on this run. The area most at risk of seeing 'proper snow' seems fairly consistent although probably needs another day or so before confidence is high enough to be a bit more definite about snow risk from it.
Home: Tunbridge Wells
Work: Tonbridge
Ally Pally Snowman
15 November 2024 17:08:40
Shite GFS 12z,  but at least GEM is offering hope.
https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/topkarten.php?map=20&model=gem&var=25&run=12&time=240&lid=OP&h=0&mv=0&tr=12#mapref 

Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.

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