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doctormog
28 December 2019 10:53:46

The only positive I can find in any of the model output, is that at least it looks like being drier than of late. Other than that we are looking down the barrel of yet another relentlessly mild winter, with maybe a few frosts if we are lucky.

Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


How is mid to late January looking or perhaps the second week in February? The fact is that model output is usually very good up to about day 5 or 6 after that it can spot patterns. What you seem to have done is to extrapolate this out to day 50 or 60. 


JACKO4EVER
28 December 2019 10:53:51


 


Discussing “Voldemort” is fine but this thread is for model output discussion. The intense Polar Vortex and associated prevailing westerlies and strong zonal flow are relevant, other issues less so unless we want to conflate weather and climate.


EVen when the output is mild there is plenty to discuss IMO. The only HP relevant to this specific thread is High Pressure. 


Originally Posted by: doctormog 


surely the two are inextricably linked? 
ok I will get my coat ..... 😂😘

Maunder Minimum
28 December 2019 10:58:36


 


How is mid to late January looking or perhaps the second week in February? The fact is that model output is usually very good up to about day 5 or 6 after that it can spot patterns. What you seem to have done is to extrapolate this out to day 50 or 60. 


Originally Posted by: doctormog 


Bitter experience Doc. Once we are in a rut such as we currently are, it hangs around like a bad smell.


I really do so wonder what it would actually take these days to deliver a classic winter of old.


New world order coming.
doctormog
28 December 2019 10:59:01


 


surely the two are inextricably linked? 
ok I will get my coat ..... 😂😘


Originally Posted by: JACKO4EVER 


I never suggested they were not linked, one does not exist without the other, they are not the same thing though and one I suspect relevant to this thread.


doctormog
28 December 2019 11:00:17


 


Bitter experience Doc. Once we are in a rut such as we currently are, it hangs around like a bad smell.


I really do so wonder what it would actually take these days to deliver a classic winter of old.


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


Ok, so not anything to do with the model output. Perhaps a few new relevant threads are needed. One for nostalgia and one for winter moaning .


The Beast from the East
28 December 2019 11:15:46


 


Bitter experience Doc. Once we are in a rut such as we currently are, it hangs around like a bad smell.


I really do so wonder what it would actually take these days to deliver a classic winter of old.


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


I would say only a Strat warming event like Feb 2018 can break our modern winter pattern these days, but even then only briefly. The jet is so powerful now and fuelled by warmer oceans


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
ballamar
28 December 2019 11:16:24
HP dominated colder weather at the end of the GFS op run, perhaps the weather will begin to balance out a bit
Maunder Minimum
28 December 2019 11:22:25


 


Ok, so not anything to do with the model output. Perhaps a few new relevant threads are needed. One for nostalgia and one for winter moaning .


Originally Posted by: doctormog 


Perhaps a thread dedicated to looking at the pieces of the jigsaw which have to fall into place for a classic winter. There must be precursors which can be studied from previous brilliant winters. I was 8 years old in December 1962 - we went as a family to visit our maternal grandparents for the day on Boxing Day and I recall the difficulty Dad had driving home in the very heavy snow which started falling that day. What happened in autumn 1962 which led to that best of all possible winters and would the modern Glosea have picked up on the signals in advance?


 


New world order coming.
marting
28 December 2019 11:33:52

The 06z GEFS have plenty of interesting charts post 260 hours onwards. I know they are out in FI, but still makes better looking than before then 


We can but hope some of these become reality and they firm up into a change in pattern over the next few days. The high pressure may just move into a more favourable position with some form of PV disruption 


Martin


Martin
Greasby, Wirral.
lanky
28 December 2019 11:44:45


 


Perhaps a thread dedicated to looking at the pieces of the jigsaw which have to fall into place for a classic winter. There must be precursors which can be studied from previous brilliant winters. I was 8 years old in December 1962 - we went as a family to visit our maternal grandparents for the day on Boxing Day and I recall the difficulty Dad had driving home in the very heavy snow which started falling that day. What happened in autumn 1962 which led to that best of all possible winters and would the modern Glosea have picked up on the signals in advance?


 


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


That's how Gav does his winter forecasts


Sometimes the analogues work and sometimes not IMO


The same general patterns can exist for weeks on end (like now ) and then the analogues give a pretty good answer but they can suddenly flip to a new regime for no apparent reason


 


Martin
Richmond, Surrey
Gandalf The White
28 December 2019 13:17:41


 


Ok, so not anything to do with the model output. Perhaps a few new relevant threads are needed. One for nostalgia and one for winter moaning .


Originally Posted by: doctormog 


As they say, nostalgia ain't what it used to be.


wink


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Gusty
28 December 2019 13:26:57

All the talk of extreme late December mildness courtesy of high 850 Hpa temperatures haven't materialised down here. In fact were heading for the coolest spell of the winter down here in the SE. 


The fresh injection of polar air circa 4th January will bring some very cold nights too as HP settles back across again to trap it under an inversion.


No chart available for the selected hour. Many charts start at 3 hours ahead, so if you have 0 hours selected try stepping forward or selecting a later hour.


Steve - Folkestone, Kent
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ballamar
28 December 2019 13:34:07


All the talk of extreme late December mildness courtesy of high 850 Hpa temperatures haven't materialised down here. In fact were heading for the coolest spell of the winter down here in the SE. 


The fresh injection of polar air circa 4th January will bring some very cold nights too as HP settled back across again to trap it under an inversion.


No chart available for the selected hour. Many charts start at 3 hours ahead, so if you have 0 hours selected try stepping forward or selecting a later hour.


Originally Posted by: Gusty 


 


indeed and some of the runs prolong that inversion although a minority. Stagnant air is often underestimated at this time of year as it doesn’t produce snow. Frost and fog would be a welcome addition

sunny coast
28 December 2019 13:34:18
Looking a cooler week than elsewhere in this corner looks like single digit maxes and increasing risk of Frost and fog as per met office Outlook. Still in SIngle figures today.
JACKO4EVER
28 December 2019 13:38:24


All the talk of extreme late December mildness courtesy of high 850 Hpa temperatures haven't materialised down here. In fact were heading for the coolest spell of the winter down here in the SE. 


The fresh injection of polar air circa 4th January will bring some very cold nights too as HP settled back across again to trap it under an inversion.


No chart available for the selected hour. Many charts start at 3 hours ahead, so if you have 0 hours selected try stepping forward or selecting a later hour.


Originally Posted by: Gusty 


personally I think this is the best chance of us getting something wintry, “faux” cold with frost and fog. As ever a few things have to click in place for us to achieve this. Other than that, at least it’s currently dry for many places. 

Retron
28 December 2019 13:39:56

Looking a cooler week than elsewhere in this corner looks like single digit maxes and increasing risk of Frost and fog as per met office Outlook. Still in SIngle figures today.

Originally Posted by: sunny coast 


It has, of course, been in single figures down here more often than not so far this December.


https://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/global_monitoring/temperature/tn03797_30.gif


It's the nights which have made it a mild month. Get rid of the cloud overnight and the 850s won't matter so much... but the high 850s imply a warm, moist airmass, so that's easier said than done.


 


Leysdown, north Kent
picturesareme
28 December 2019 14:39:28


All the talk of extreme late December mildness courtesy of high 850 Hpa temperatures haven't materialised down here. In fact were heading for the coolest spell of the winter down here in the SE. 


The fresh injection of polar air circa 4th January will bring some very cold nights too as HP settles back across again to trap it under an inversion.


No chart available for the selected hour. Many charts start at 3 hours ahead, so if you have 0 hours selected try stepping forward or selecting a later hour.


Originally Posted by: Gusty 


Winter of 2008 was similar down here in the south and southeast with high pressure sat just over on the continent, and folk complaining about lack of cold 850's whilst temperatures struggled between 4-8C and some very cold nights - if i remember correctly the coldest nights got down into double minuses 

sunny coast
28 December 2019 15:44:00


 


It has, of course, been in single figures down here more often than not so far this December.


https://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/global_monitoring/temperature/tn03797_30.gif


It's the nights which have made it a mild month. Get rid of the cloud overnight and the 850s won't matter so much... but the high 850s imply a warm, moist airmass, so that's easier said than done.


 


Originally Posted by: Retron 

indeed it has  nothing exceptionally mild at all I've known very much milder December's and Xmas new year periods  at some time in every decade I can remember 

Brian Gaze
28 December 2019 16:08:53

December CET to 27/12 is 1.1C above the average I think. Not exceptionally mild and I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. Temps today have ranged from 8C in the SE to 12C in parts of the north and west. The questions are more about where we go from here. The combination of above average daytime temps in much of the country accompanied by mild nights may be very notable. Of course it the pattern changes in a couple of weeks time and we get a decent cold snap the winter may end-up in the quickly forgotten category. On the other hand if the mild locks in we could be challenging some records.


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
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Gusty
28 December 2019 16:41:57

The 12z continues to model a brushing polar incursion in 6 days time.


Although not significant in terms of wintriness it will at least clean the air to offer a few days of sunny conditions with cold trapped at the surface before the westerlies bring in the first warm front to cloud things up again.



BTW...the December 61-90 average was 4.65c. 


The December average 91 - 19 so far is running at 4.97c


Steve - Folkestone, Kent
Current conditions from my Davis Vantage Vue
https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/IFOLKE11 
Join Kent Weather on Facebook.
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David M Porter
28 December 2019 17:03:52


December CET to 27/12 is 1.1C above the average I think. Not exceptionally mild and I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. Temps today have ranged from 8C in the SE to 12C in parts of the north and west. The questions are more about where we go from here. The combination of above average daytime temps in much of the country accompanied by mild nights may be very notable. Of course it the pattern changes in a couple of weeks time and we get a decent cold snap the winter may end-up in the quickly forgotten category. On the other hand if the mild locks in we could be challenging some records.


Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


How does this December compare with that of 2015 for temperature, Brian? I may be wrong here but wasn't Dec 2015 the mildest on record?


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
Devonian
28 December 2019 17:16:21


 


Perhaps a thread dedicated to looking at the pieces of the jigsaw which have to fall into place for a classic winter. There must be precursors which can be studied from previous brilliant winters. I was 8 years old in December 1962 - we went as a family to visit our maternal grandparents for the day on Boxing Day and I recall the difficulty Dad had driving home in the very heavy snow which started falling that day. What happened in autumn 1962 which led to that best of all possible winters and would the modern Glosea have picked up on the signals in advance?


 


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


Models picked up on the 1987 easterly more than a week ahead. There being high pressure near Nova Zemlaya was important, as I remember it. But, what caused high pressure to be near NZ? That's the question.


Well, I'm not so sure there are precursors if you're talking loud weather noise rather than the effect of the atmosphere being bludgeoned by a force. Ok, a huge Icelandic VE8 in October event is going to tip us to cold weather and ever more 'Voldemort' works the other way, but in between? Its about how cheeses roll down hills. Is the hill steep enough, are you trying to roll brie, how many different cheeses are there rolling about. That kind of thing.


And at the moment? All the cheese are in a valley marked 'mild' not 'cold'.


 

Retron
28 December 2019 17:48:49


Models picked up on the 1987 easterly more than a week ahead. There being high pressure near Nova Zemlaya was important, as I remember it. But, what caused high pressure to be near NZ? That's the question.


Originally Posted by: Devonian 


Essentially, the easterlies that we stopped getting in the 90s were regarded as extensions of the Siberian High, albeit looking at reanalysis charts it was often a polar cell involved rather than direct action from the Siberian High itself. This polar cell was invariably supported by upper heights caused by disturbance to the polar vortex - what caused that in the first place, though, is up for discussion!


I still remember in the mid 90s, Philip Eden wrote in Today, "cold high H will sink southwestwards across Scandinavia" and lo, a few days later we had a textbook midwinter easterly. Similarly in 1991, the models picked up on the pending cold a week or more out, as I remember our local (TVS) weatherman going on about it.


The key with most of those easterlies seems to be having a polar high in situ, then relying on an upper ridge moving eastwards across the Atlantic linking up to it - we need zonality, of sorts, to kickstart the whole thing. Once the link is made, a zonal flow deflected southwards of normal is required to "prop up" the blocking high, without it the high quickly slides away SE'wards.


Looking at the models, we're getting upper ridges moving eastwards easily enough (it is, after all, the natural flow of things), but there's nothing for them to link to as the polar cell is further towards the Pacific side of the Arctic. To use an anology, for an easterly we effectively want a pair of cogs meshing together. We're at the point where the two cogs have been moved a bit too far apart, so one is spinning (the Atlantic cog) but there's nothing for it to mesh with. Whether that polar cell ever gets close enough this winter remains to be seen...


Leysdown, north Kent
Devonian
28 December 2019 18:55:50


 


Essentially, the easterlies that we stopped getting in the 90s were regarded as extensions of the Siberian High, albeit looking at reanalysis charts it was often a polar cell involved rather than direct action from the Siberian High itself. This polar cell was invariably supported by upper heights caused by disturbance to the polar vortex - what caused that in the first place, though, is up for discussion!


I still remember in the mid 90s, Philip Eden wrote in Today, "cold high H will sink southwestwards across Scandinavia" and lo, a few days later we had a textbook midwinter easterly. Similarly in 1991, the models picked up on the pending cold a week or more out, as I remember our local (TVS) weatherman going on about it.


The key with most of those easterlies seems to be having a polar high in situ, then relying on an upper ridge moving eastwards across the Atlantic linking up to it - we need zonality, of sorts, to kickstart the whole thing. Once the link is made, a zonal flow deflected southwards of normal is required to "prop up" the blocking high, without it the high quickly slides away SE'wards.


Looking at the models, we're getting upper ridges moving eastwards easily enough (it is, after all, the natural flow of things), but there's nothing for them to link to as the polar cell is further towards the Pacific side of the Arctic. To use an anology, for an easterly we effectively want a pair of cogs meshing together. We're at the point where the two cogs have been moved a bit too far apart, so one is spinning (the Atlantic cog) but there's nothing for it to mesh with. Whether that polar cell ever gets close enough this winter remains to be seen...


Originally Posted by: Retron 


Of course! Extensions of the Siberian High/Polar High and cold blocking. Tbh, I'd nearly forgotten all that sort of thing...

nsrobins
28 December 2019 19:39:05


 


Of course! Extensions of the Siberian High/Polar High and cold blocking. Tbh, I'd nearly forgotten all that sort of thing...


Originally Posted by: Devonian 


Most if us have - it’s been so long since a proper link up occurred.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO

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