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Argyle77
16 January 2020 02:12:44
Finally this winter is about get going. Took your time weather gods
DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
16 January 2020 06:49:29

Put the optimism on hold! More straws to clutch at but cross-model agreement in a reliable time frame is still needed.


GFS as yesterday; brings a trough through tonight then big rise of pressure, 1040-1045mb Sun - Wed 22nd over UK with strong southerlies over Ireland, then moves off into Atlantic by Sat 25th with northerlies down the N Sea into Denmark and Germany but just missing us (and if my experience of GFS northerlies is anything to go by, more likely to shift to the east than not). Generally W or SW-ly flow then resumes through to Fri 1st Feb


ECM takes the high pressure westwards a little earlier and brings in a NW-ly on Sat 25th, cold for Scotland but not making it all the way south


GEFS ensembles stay together for cold 18-21 Jan, then mild to ca 25th Jan after which agreement breaks up - the mean is close to seasonal average but a few very cold runs, notably the Op  Run EDIT, sorry, Control Run at -10 for a few days. Dry after today until 25th, not much after that either. Pattern much the same UK-wide, though N Scotland has more rain/snow after 25th.


A quick scan of the T+300-384 postage stamps shows a less persistent mild pattern than so far this winter, but cold air usually W or E of us


 


Yesterday's kind remarks appreciated


War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

Chichester 12m asl
Maunder Minimum
16 January 2020 07:40:37

In Copenhagen at the moment - yesterday, Denmark recorded its warmest January temperature on record - 11.2 degrees. It is unremittingly warm, grey and wet here - just continuous gloom and the Danes are sick of it - never known a winter like it.


This foulest of foul winters continues as expected. This winter does not disappoint in being the worst of the worst. As I stated at the end of December, once this pattern sets in at the start of January, it persists.


How I wish for a January to be a winter month for a change!


New world order coming.
Chunky Pea
16 January 2020 07:50:20


How I wish for a January to be a winter month for a change!


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


Whether it is down to a distorted view of the past or actually sound observation, but I find that March tends to be more of a 'winter month' in terms of cold and frost/snow potential than January. To observe snow in January seems an almost impossible task! 


Current Conditions
https://t.ly/MEYqg 


"You don't have to know anything to have an opinion"
--Roger P, 12/Oct/2022
Brian Gaze
16 January 2020 07:50:37

Not seeing much to get excited by from a cold perspective. The GEFS control run is about the coldest on show this morning. Can be stepped through here:


https://www.theweatheroutlook.com/twodata/gefs.aspx?run=na&charthour=180&chartname=850tmp&chartregion=na-region&p=0&charttag=MSLP%20850hPa%20C


 


 


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
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"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Brian Gaze
16 January 2020 07:51:36


 


Whether it is down to a distorted view of the past or actually sound observation, but I find that March tends to be more of a 'winter month' in terms of cold and frost/snow potential than January. To observe snow in January seems an almost impossible task! 


Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea 


Good point. Every January in the past 50 years has been 3.9C above CET after the first 14 days.


https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/hadobs/hadcet/cet_info_mean.html


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
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"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
nsrobins
16 January 2020 08:39:22
The persistent theme of the MO extended outlook - unsettled returning and never too cold - is all you need to know. The polar snap(s) are not a given despite the odd OP or control run in the last 24hrs. Let’s get the UK high in first and see where things go.
Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
David M Porter
16 January 2020 09:15:18


 


Good point. Every January in the past 50 years has been 3.9C above CET after the first 14 days.


https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/hadobs/hadcet/cet_info_mean.html


Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


The past 50 years? Are you sure about that, Brian?


I'd be amazed if the likes of the Januarys of 1979, 1985, 1987 and 2010 too were as much above CET in the first half of the month.


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
some faraway beach
16 January 2020 09:30:19


 


Whether it is down to a distorted view of the past or actually sound observation, but I find that March tends to be more of a 'winter month' in terms of cold and frost/snow potential than January. To observe snow in January seems an almost impossible task! 


Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea 


Makes sense. Our climate is determined by sea-surface temperatures. These are at their coldest in March. Therefore any weather coming from the north or east has a wider range of tracks on which it is still cold enough to deliver frost or snow by the time it reaches here. 


Synoptics which are marginal in December or January can deliver in February or March. That's why I've never agreed when snow in March has been accompanied by comments along the lines of "if only we'd had these synoptics in December or January". If we had, it would probably have been cold rain.


2 miles west of Taunton, 32 m asl, where "milder air moving in from the west" becomes SNOWMAGEDDON.
Well, two or three times a decade it does, anyway.
Brian Gaze
16 January 2020 09:38:13


 


The past 50 years? Are you sure about that, Brian?


I'd be amazed if the likes of the Januarys of 1979, 1985, 1987 and 2010 too were as much above CET in the first half of the month.


Originally Posted by: David M Porter 


I was being sarcastic. This Jan is most definitely not par for the course so far!


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
David M Porter
16 January 2020 09:47:23


 


I was being sarcastic. This Jan is most definitely not par for the course so far!


Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


OK, thanks. I did wonder at first it was perhaps a typo or something like that!


I'm fairly sure that the last below average January for temps was probably 2010 (although 2013 turned colder as the month went on but not as cold as 2010 IIRC). Someone please correct me if I'm wrong though!


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
The Beast from the East
16 January 2020 09:50:13


In Copenhagen at the moment - yesterday, Denmark recorded its warmest January temperature on record - 11.2 degrees.i


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


Surprised its a low as that! I would have thought it could easily get to 13 or 14 in the right conditions. Wonder what comparable temps were like in 1989. 


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Maunder Minimum
16 January 2020 10:06:28


 


Surprised its a low as that! I would have thought it could easily get to 13 or 14 in the right conditions. Wonder what comparable temps were like in 1989. 


Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


Don't forget that Denmark is maritime with sea temperatures moderating the temperature in either direction. Also, it has no hills (let alone mountains) capable of delivering any Foehn effect - that is why in these conditions, there is little diurnal temperature range and it remains unremittingly grey - nothing to disrupt the westerly grunge.


New world order coming.
The Beast from the East
16 January 2020 10:22:37


 


Don't forget that Denmark is maritime with sea temperatures moderating the temperature in either direction. Also, it has no hills (let alone mountains) capable of delivering any Foehn effect - that is why in these conditions, there is little diurnal temperature range and it remains unremittingly grey - nothing to disrupt the westerly grunge.


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


I see, but looks like you will get something like normal winter later next week


Would prefer the block to sit over us, but as long as it stays dry I don't mind the chill



"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Saint Snow
16 January 2020 10:32:15


 


Whether it is down to a distorted view of the past or actually sound observation, but I find that March tends to be more of a 'winter month' in terms of cold and frost/snow potential than January. To observe snow in January seems an almost impossible task! 


Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea 


 


For me, Feb has been the worst of the 4 months for snow (at least since the turn of the century).


In terms of frequency, it's January - but most have been up to only a couple cms and only a small minority have lasted 3 or more days. December best for good falls (either 5cm+ or the snow remains on the ground for 3 days or more)


MBY seems to have missed any decent Feb falls.


 



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
tallyho_83
16 January 2020 10:33:05

P00 the thick blue - is this P00 the coldest ens? I can't get to this - it shows -12c@ 850hpa


https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/show_diagrams.php?geoid=49069&model=gfs&var=2&run=0&lid=ENS&bw=1


 


Home Location - Kellands Lane, Okehampton, Devon (200m ASL)
---------------------------------------
Sean Moon
Magical Moon
www.magical-moon.com


jhall
16 January 2020 10:42:06


 


OK, thanks. I did wonder at first it was perhaps a typo or something like that!


I'm fairly sure that the last below average January for temps was probably 2010 (although 2013 turned colder as the month went on but not as cold as 2010 IIRC). Someone please correct me if I'm wrong though!


Originally Posted by: David M Porter 


Recent cold, or at least chilly, Januaries:


Jan 2009: 3.0


Jan 2010: 1.4


Jan 2011: 3.7


Jan 2013: 3.5


Jan 2017: 4.0 (which is probably just about below average, depending on which reference period you are using)


 


 


Cranleigh, Surrey
The Beast from the East
16 January 2020 10:58:30

06z builds a strong block, but too far south. Dry and frosty though. 


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Arcus
16 January 2020 11:13:55


P00 the thick blue - is this P00 the coldest ens? I can't get to this - it shows -12c@ 850hpa 


Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 


Control run Tally, need to select it on the left rather than click on the 850 graph for some reason. FWIW, control run similarly chilly on the 6z.


Ben,
Nr. Easingwold, North Yorkshire
30m asl
nsrobins
16 January 2020 11:18:02


P00 the thick blue - is this P00 the coldest ens? I can't get to this - it shows -12c@ 850hpa


https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/show_diagrams.php?geoid=49069&model=gfs&var=2&run=0&lid=ENS&bw=1


 


Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 


The pert. 00 is the control run (thick dark blue). It’s run with no tweaks to initial input data (as per the OP) but at about half the resolution as the OP.


When there is a big difference between OP and control you know resolution is having an effect on outcome.


The suite (1-20) are also lower resolution but with small tweaks to input data - these illustrate how minor changes early on might cause big differences down the line. When control and OP are close together confidence increases.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Russwirral
16 January 2020 11:39:27
That cold plunge out east later in the 06z run isnt a millions miles from us, plenty of time for other options to be presented.

The control was hinting at this this morning from overnight too

I would say this has an element of optimism for end of january at the moment
Brian Gaze
16 January 2020 12:05:29


 


The pert. 00 is the control run (thick dark blue). It’s run with no tweaks to initial input data (as per the OP) but at about half the resolution as the OP.


When there is a big difference between OP and control you know resolution is having an effect on outcome.


The suite (1-20) are also lower resolution but with small tweaks to input data - these illustrate how minor changes early on might cause big differences down the line. When control and OP are close together confidence increases.


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


I think the op and control currently have different physics too. 


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
doctormog
16 January 2020 12:08:48
If you're after colder weather the trends in the model output are tenuous but encouraging at present. For example the mean t850hPa by day ten for this location is down to -8°C on the 06z GFS suite.
tallyho_83
16 January 2020 12:14:49


 


Control run Tally, need to select it on the left rather than click on the 850 graph for some reason. FWIW, control run similarly chilly on the 6z.


Originally Posted by: Arcus 


Thought it was control but couldn't get the the chart when clicking on graph thanks anyway!


Meanwhile a lot of interest post 24th Jan - a flip to colder ENS in medium term when a day or so back they were milder and operational was colder outlier.


26th or 27th seem cold. Timing of cold and positioning of HP is crucial. But plenty of interest here AND GOOD SUPPORT FOR A NORTHERLY. - this has cropped up at short notice.



P04:



P08



P17:



P12:



P19:



control: - P00



 


Home Location - Kellands Lane, Okehampton, Devon (200m ASL)
---------------------------------------
Sean Moon
Magical Moon
www.magical-moon.com


tallyho_83
16 January 2020 12:20:21


 


Control run Tally, need to select it on the left rather than click on the 850 graph for some reason. FWIW, control run similarly chilly on the 6z.


Originally Posted by: Arcus 


Yes Operational is in the milder END of the runs at +2c when when it's ensembles are widely down to -4 or -5c @ 850hpa from 24th Jan.


Home Location - Kellands Lane, Okehampton, Devon (200m ASL)
---------------------------------------
Sean Moon
Magical Moon
www.magical-moon.com


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