Remove ads from site

xioni2
14 March 2020 20:40:24


People over 70 will be instructed by the government to stay in strict isolation at home or in care homes for four months, under a "wartime-style" mobilisation effort by the government likely to be enforced within the next 20 days.


It is part of a series of measures being prepared by the prime minister, health secretary, chief medical officer and chief scientific adviser to prevent the health service from "falling over" and to save lives as Covid-19 becomes an epidemic in the UK.


Other measures already being planned include:



  • the forced requisitioning of hotels and other buildings as temporary hospitals;

  • the requisitioning of private hospitals as emergency hospitals;

  • temporary closure of pubs, bars and restaurants - some time after next weekend's ban on mass gatherings;

  • emergency manufacture by several companies of respirators that would be necessary to keep alive those who become acutely ill;

  • the closure of schools for perhaps a few weeks, but with skeleton staff kept on to provide childcare for key workers in the NHS and police.


Originally Posted by: Gavin D 


That could make sense, but how does it tie up with the herd immunity strategy? 

springsunshine
14 March 2020 20:41:50


It got lost in the avalanche of posts, I am reposting it:


A piece by a virologist criticising the apparent strategy of HMG


 https://theconversation.com/coronavirus-can-herd-immunity-really-protect-us-133583


 Achieving herd immunity would require well over 47 million people to be infected in the UK. Current estimates are that COVID-19 has a 2.3% case-fatality rate and a 19% rate of severe disease. This means that achieving herd immunity to COVID-19 in the UK could result in the deaths of more a million people with a further eight million severe infections requiring critical care.


 A delay strategy when combined with surveillance and containment, as recommended by the WHO, could be very effective in combating the spread of COVID-19. Yet if we slow the spread of the virus but are relying on herd immunity to protect the most vulnerable people, we would still need 47 million people to be infected.


 Even if we manage to protect the most vulnerable people (though no discussion is provided on how this will be done or for how long) the fatality rate for the otherwise healthy portion of the population may still be 0.5% or higher. This means that even in this unlikely “best case” scenario we would still be looking at more than 236,000 deaths.


 We can and we must do better than that. China is rapidly controlling the spread of COVID-19 without requiring herd immunity (only 0.0056% of its population has been infected). Waiting for herd immunity to COVID-19 to develop in the UK by letting the virus “pass through the community” is not a good public health strategy.


Originally Posted by: xioni2 


The reality is though without a vaccine that may be the only way to go and let nature run its course,which it will now do irrespective of what action is taken I can`t see other than indroducing marshall law, any other way without a vaccine,if not in the first wave then in the second wave. Personally I would rather get it sooner than later!!

SJV
14 March 2020 20:45:28


I will NOT cease from criticising this inept irresponsible shambles of a government just because a few Tory posters dont like it.


This pandemic is being mishandled by a government who have been looking the other way, and are now too proud, too cowardly to admit their errors straightaway.


There is too much at stake to maintain the pretence, the lie, that the people in charge are competent.


Originally Posted by: Whether Idle 


It's your opinion WI, and not an expert one at that. The same goes for everyone else in here. I don't doubt the people in charge are incompetent, we've all seen Boris after all. This does not extend to our scientists and experts who are advising.


There will be a political element in this, there has to be. On this unprecedented occasion though, it is rooted in science and the honest desire to keep the country and its services as stable as possible. 


As many have already stated, the success of our strategy depends on how well we get the balance right. I have faith in our experts, because I choose to. I also respect there are other experts with equally valid opinions who see the situation and it's potential solutions differently.


Time will tell, but I think your hatred for the Tory party is clouding your normally balanced views 🙂


 

Rob K
14 March 2020 20:47:45

BREAKING: France will now into Lockdown from midnight tonight.

This include all public places including cinemas, restaurants and nightclubs

Originally Posted by: Heavy Weather 2013 


so much for the French ski resorts telling people it’s business as usual and still to come on their holidays this weekend...


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
xioni2
14 March 2020 20:49:27

We shouldn't confuse the European 'lockdowns' with what had happened in Wuhan. With a few exceptions, people in Wuhan were forced to stay inside their homes (flats). This is not what is happening in Italy, Greece, France, Spain etc. They are just closing shops etc. in order to flatten the infection peak.


Arguably this could also mean that the European measures will be less effective than in Wuhan or that they will take longer to work.

doctormog
14 March 2020 20:53:50
Without being morbid or flippant I was discussing with a colleague yesterday that this whole situation will fuel a massive amount of research and will greatly inform scientists and medics in the future as how to, and possibly how not to, handle certain types of pandemics. Unfortunately that time is not and cannot be yet.
Maunder Minimum
14 March 2020 20:53:52


 


That could make sense, but how does it tie up with the herd immunity strategy? 


Originally Posted by: xioni2 


Those not in the vulnerable category still get the disease and build up immunity.


New world order coming.
Ally Pally Snowman
14 March 2020 20:54:59


We shouldn't confuse the European 'lockdowns' with what had happened in Wuhan. With a few exceptions, people in Wuhan were forced to stay inside their homes (flats). This is not what is happening in Italy, Greece, France, Spain etc. They are just closing shops etc. in order to flatten the infection peak.


Arguably this could also mean that the European measures will be less effective than in Wuhan or that they will take longer to work.


Originally Posted by: xioni2 


 


This is a very good point . A Wuhan style lockdown isn't possible in western Europe but I think we will probably have to tell everybody to stay at home and not go to work at some point. 


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
xioni2
14 March 2020 20:55:17


 Those not in the vulnerable category still get the disease and build up immunity.


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


I meant the closure of pubs, bars and restaurants. 

Maunder Minimum
14 March 2020 20:56:16


 


so much for the French ski resorts telling people it’s business as usual and still to come on their holidays this weekend...


Originally Posted by: Rob K 


Easter is peak time for the ski resorts - will (from an environmental only perspective) be interesting to see the Alps in pristine condition without snow machines, chair lifts in operation and pistes in action.


I have already seen an air pollution analysis for northern Italy - if nothing else, the lockdown is creating a clean air environment.


New world order coming.
Maunder Minimum
14 March 2020 20:58:20


 


I meant the closure of pubs, bars and restaurants. 


Originally Posted by: xioni2 


I would prefer that they remain open. I would presume that the government will plan for a range of measures and will only tighten the screw if it becomes necessary.


Peston's piece probably lacks the refinement of the real thing - the government is bringing forward emergency legislation to allow them to do these things - but what they actually do and when, will be decided in real time.


New world order coming.
Saint Snow
14 March 2020 21:00:40

Apologies if I repeat something someone else has said or regurgitate a pointbslready made, but I've been busy the past couple of days and thus thread develops faster than a Covid hotspot. 


I see Sinn Fein have labelled the stance taken by the UK government as subjecting us all to a "twisted medical experiment" and that we should get angry with the "bast*rds" forcing this upon us.


I broadly agree with thegeneral stance of the Govt on this, but would love there to be a massive backlash from the same ignorant, we-know-better-than-so-called-experts masses who voted for Brexit and who launched this malevolent shitstain and his eggheaded Rasputin into power. 


Stockpilers are now really pissing me off. It's hit, at certain shops: pasta, pasta sauces, teabags, eggs, milk, nappies, baby wipes, bleach, anti-bacterial wipes,etc - as well as the toilet rolls, soap, hand gel, paracetamol. Was talking to the checkout girl in Aldi and they told me a woman had kicked off in the morning as they wouldn't let her buy eight 24-packs of toilet rolls. Apparently, Morrisons are selling 5 million toilet rolls a day. FFS.


 



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Gooner
14 March 2020 21:01:59


 


There are many more people who've had input into this strategy than these two people, of course. They have been guided by experts relevant to this situation, and those involved are not just the best in epidemiology in this country, but some of best in their field globally. 


Originally Posted by: Arcus 


They might well be but as a country we turned left at the junction and it seems everyone else went right 


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


xioni2
14 March 2020 21:04:10

I haven't seen this new paper, but an interesting summary here


Researchers found that the average serial interval for the novel coronavirus in China was approximately four days. This also is among the first studies to estimate the rate of asymptomatic transmission.


Meyers and her team examined more than 450 infection case reports from 93 cities in China and found the strongest evidence yet that people without symptoms must be transmitting the virus, known as pre-symptomatic transmission. According to the paper, more than 1 in 10 infections were from people who had the virus but did not yet feel sick.


Previously, researchers had some uncertainty about asymptomatic transmission with the coronavirus. This new evidence could provide guidance to public health officials on how to contain the spread of the disease.


“This provides evidence that extensive control measures including isolation, quarantine, school closures, travel restrictions and cancellation of mass gatherings may be warranted,” Meyers said. “Asymptomatic transmission definitely makes containment more difficult.”

doctormog
14 March 2020 21:06:15


 


They might well be but as a country we turned left at the junction and it seems everyone else went right 


Originally Posted by: Gooner 


“Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,

And sorry I could not travel both...
 
...I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.”

 
Whether that is for better or worse we don’t know know at the moment.
 
(With thanks to the late great Robert Frost)

 
 
xioni2
14 March 2020 21:07:57


 “Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,


And sorry I could not travel both...
 
...I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.”

 
Whether that is for better or worse we don’t know know at the moment.
 
(With thanks to the late great Robert Frost)

 
 

Originally Posted by: doctormog 


 
SJV
14 March 2020 21:11:05


I haven't seen this new paper, but an interesting summary here


Researchers found that the average serial interval for the novel coronavirus in China was approximately four days. This also is among the first studies to estimate the rate of asymptomatic transmission.


Meyers and her team examined more than 450 infection case reports from 93 cities in China and found the strongest evidence yet that people without symptoms must be transmitting the virus, known as pre-symptomatic transmission. According to the paper, more than 1 in 10 infections were from people who had the virus but did not yet feel sick.


Previously, researchers had some uncertainty about asymptomatic transmission with the coronavirus. This new evidence could provide guidance to public health officials on how to contain the spread of the disease.


“This provides evidence that extensive control measures including isolation, quarantine, school closures, travel restrictions and cancellation of mass gatherings may be warranted,” Meyers said. “Asymptomatic transmission definitely makes containment more difficult.”


Originally Posted by: xioni2 


When I read posts like this, I feel it calls into question our strategy. Particularly the idea of easing the strain on our NHS.


Should we go into lockdown, it won't be a Wuhan-style lockdown, as others have rightly pointed out. Our curve may flatten but as we've seen with Italy the cases will still rise significantly and it worries me that there is little we can do, even with control measures put into place (a - they won't be strict enough or, b - our public won't follow them strictly enough) we will see catastrophic effects on our services.


What do others think?

Gooner
14 March 2020 21:11:41


 


 


It won't reduce it but it will drastically slow it down and give the NHS a chance. 


Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 


Exactly that and give some breathing space 


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Gooner
14 March 2020 21:13:36


How do you work that out?  Italy are in lockdown and it doesn’t seem to have helped.  If the virus is out there it will run its course.  We can only hope to come through this!


Originally Posted by: Caz 


In some parts of Italy it has actually slowed the reported cases , granted its only a small % but it seems to have helped 


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Gooner
14 March 2020 21:17:23


I will NOT cease from criticising this inept irresponsible shambles of a government just because a few Tory posters dont like it.


This pandemic is being mishandled by a government who have been looking the other way, and are now too proud, too cowardly to admit their errors straightaway.


There is too much at stake to maintain the pretence, the lie, that the people in charge are competent.


Originally Posted by: Whether Idle 


I'm with you on that , the government are only looking at stopping large gathering because of what Sport has done , they have been caught out 


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Gooner
14 March 2020 21:20:53


 


That goes for every SME in the uk.


Originally Posted by: springsunshine 


As a group we turnover £500 million but it could well hit us all in the group very hard as we are 90% European based 


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


xioni2
14 March 2020 21:21:20

45 store/shop owners were arrested in Greece for opening their stores during the first day of the ban. They get a hefty fine and a criminal record.


 

David M Porter
14 March 2020 21:21:43


 


Indeed - I think that's good news, don't you? It means for the vast majority this isn't particularly threatening.


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 



Let's hope so, Peter.


Until a fortnight ago I wasn't especially concerned about this virus. However, ever since the government's announcement on 2nd March that the virus was likely to affect the UK pretty widely, I have been getting ever more concerned. Not so much for myself but for my parents who are in their 70s, and a few other elderly relatives I have.


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
Arcus
14 March 2020 21:22:01


 


They might well be but as a country we turned left at the junction and it seems everyone else went right 


Originally Posted by: Gooner 


My Spidey Sense would say that the WHO advice will gravitate toward UKGOV position over time rather than vice-versa.


Ben,
Nr. Easingwold, North Yorkshire
30m asl
Gavin D
14 March 2020 21:24:09
I find it quite amazing how many of these lockdowns/border closures/flight bans are (supposedly) ending in just a few weeks it could take the likes of Italy & Spain at least another 2 to 4 weeks before they start and see sufficient falls to start and reopen properly then you've got Northern Europe and the UK who are probably a month or so behind (longer in the UK if the modeling is right) all seems very optimistic from many Governments.

Remove ads from site

Ads