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Gavin D
04 April 2020 16:09:55

Italy have reported 4,805 new cases and 681 new deaths



  • New cases up 220

  • New deaths down 85


More deaths in the UK than Italy.

Gavin D
04 April 2020 16:29:40
Breaking: Boris Johnson's pregnant partner Carrie Symonds has revealed she has spent a week in bed with coronavirus symptoms but she is now recovering.
Northern Sky
04 April 2020 16:35:56


I’m not convinced Darren it wasn’t


 


Originally Posted by: Polar Low 


The question I ask myself is that if the virus going round before and after Christmas was covid 19 why didn't we see an explosion of cases?


Hospitals were not overrun with flu cases and yet no one was practising social distancing, in fact at Christmas quite the opposite.


The answer is either it wasn't covid 19 or Covid 19 is not as infectious as we believe.


I would say it's more likely that it was just normal flu.


 

RobN
  • RobN
  • Advanced Member
04 April 2020 16:38:19

Why we still don't know what the death rate is for covid-19


https://www.newscientist.com/article/2239497-why-we-still-dont-know-what-the-death-rate-is-for-covid-19/


 


Rob
In the flatlands of South Cambridgeshire 15m ASL.
Phil G
04 April 2020 16:39:06


As for the hospitals, they were pretty full here but any severe cases would have been put down as pneumonia - why not. People also struggled through it when they would have fearfully gone to A&E or called an ambulance now.


Originally Posted by: fairweather 


And were the nurses dying like flies or going off sick then?

Brian Gaze
04 April 2020 16:42:45


Why we still don't know what the death rate is for covid-19


https://www.newscientist.com/article/2239497-why-we-still-dont-know-what-the-death-rate-is-for-covid-19/


 


Originally Posted by: RobN 


Good article.


My unscientific response is look how many celebs and politicians are being hospitalised or killed. I suppose someone could go through the obituaries for March 2019 to see how many were killed by flu. I suspect far fewer.


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
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Polar Low
04 April 2020 16:44:05

Even more suspicious was the fact that we had children coming back from Italy at half term Soon after I felt unwell I’m not saying I’ve had it but I would put some money on it would also love the test.


as for flu yes been really rough with that over the years so much so not been able to get out of bed for a number of days and starting very slowly on things like scrambled egg only to worry I’m sure I’ll heave again


 



 


The question I ask myself is that if the virus going round before and after Christmas was covid 19 why didn't we see an explosion of cases?


Hospitals were not overrun with flu cases and yet no one was practising social distancing, in fact at Christmas quite the opposite.


The answer is either it wasn't covid 19 or Covid 19 is not as infectious as we believe.


I would say it's more likely that it was just normal flu.


 


Originally Posted by: Northern Sky 

pfw
  • pfw
  • Advanced Member
04 April 2020 17:12:58


My unscientific response is look how many celebs and politicians are being hospitalised or killed. I suppose someone could go through the obituaries for March 2019 to see how many were killed by flu. I suspect far fewer.

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


I have also wondered what the morbidity distribution looks like for seasonal flu against COVID-19 e.g. does seasonal flu kill proportionally as many younger people, or fewer? and so on.


It's one of the horrible things about the current situation. We don't know anything like enough at the moment and until mass testing + antibody testing we won't know. The authorities are imposing restrictions based on best estimates and advice - they know it's likely to cripple the economy and have consequences for many years but what else can they do?


(Nice day here. Mainly families out on the street. But physical distancing being observed. I have noticed a number of people having "visits" where someone comes round in a car/van and then sits and chats either from the vehicle or even pulls out a deckchair and sits just over the property line and chats from a distance. Can't really see an issue with this although it's against the letter of the advice we've been given.)


--
Paul.
pfw
  • pfw
  • Advanced Member
04 April 2020 17:22:04


The question I ask myself is that if the virus going round before and after Christmas was covid 19 why didn't we see an explosion of cases?


Hospitals were not overrun with flu cases and yet no one was practising social distancing, in fact at Christmas quite the opposite.


The answer is either it wasn't covid 19 or Covid 19 is not as infectious as we believe.


I would say it's more likely that it was just normal flu.


Originally Posted by: Northern Sky 


Anecdotal again but both myself and my younger son had a nasty dry cough fever thing around early Feb. He's young and very fit but still coughed for 10 days and was unable to play football, which for him is unusual. No runny nose and in my case it turned into a hideous headache that then just cleared for no reason after about a week. Talking to a teacher I know who saw/heard my son she said, "Loads of the kids have it. It's a 2 to 4 week cough for many kids. Driving me crazy".


No way of knowing what it was of course but it didn't feel like a standard cold, more like a flu. Different to what I usually get in Canada, which generally turns me into a snot factory . Almost certainly just seasonal but it makes you wonder. I'm definitely not treating myself as immune!


 


--
Paul.
Gandalf The White
04 April 2020 17:28:16

Number of tests:






Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Gandalf The White
04 April 2020 17:32:57


Those Green shoots they kept talking about showing the first signs of appearing now in the hospital admissions data in London and South East with both seeing a drop


 


image.thumb.png.30f09caf414c5d7e9f650475aec5b28b.png


Originally Posted by: Gavin D 


 



Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Caz
  • Caz
  • Advanced Member
04 April 2020 17:39:46


 


The data does fit with what had been said a month or two ago, i.e. That only around 20% of cases required hospitalisation, implying a lot of mild or asymptomatic cases.


That piece also says "Jefferson said that it was quite likely that the virus had been circulating for longer than generally believed and that large swathes of the population had already been exposed."  Again, that supports what has been commented upon here and eslwheee, i.e. that the virus was circulating before Xmas (it was in Wuhan by early December and very probable that it was picked up and transported to other countries in December and January).


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 

It is possible.  It’s also possible that before we knew about Covid19, some deaths were put down to pneumonia or influenza. 


Market Warsop, North Nottinghamshire.
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Gandalf The White
04 April 2020 17:40:46

Watford Hospital has declared a critical emergency as they run low on Oxygen

Originally Posted by: Heavy Weather 2013 


Not true; they had a technical problem with the supply system.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Caz
  • Caz
  • Advanced Member
04 April 2020 17:46:52


 


Outdoor leisure activities......Camping,caravaning,reopening of public footpaths,hiking and fishing(I hope) to name a few.All of which permit easy social distancing.


Agree about your other predictions especially families from different households visiting which has been going on a lot around here anyway.


The other is maybe very small weddings,max of 10 people as per funerals.


Any spike in infections etc back into lockdown.


Originally Posted by: springsunshine 

My son is miffed that he can’t go fishing.  He joined a fishing lake syndicate last Monday morning, a few hours before the current restrictions were announced!  


Market Warsop, North Nottinghamshire.
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Chichesterweatherfan2
04 April 2020 17:49:19
Here in Chichester, just done our daily walk combined with visit to Waitrose...on a beautiful later warm sunny afternoon....I have never seen Priory Park, our local beautifully kept park with activity areas for children so empty..the few people we passed all kept their respectful distances....I’d expect nothing less from the good folk of Chichester....
David M Porter
04 April 2020 17:50:11


 


 



Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 



Very early I know, but maybe the lockdown that was brought in nearly a fortnight ago is starting to have some effect, even if a tentative one.


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
Gavin D
04 April 2020 18:05:17

France



  • 4,267 new cases

  • 1,053 new deaths (612 in nursing homes)

pfw
  • pfw
  • Advanced Member
04 April 2020 18:08:40

Total deaths/million
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-deaths-days-since-per-million?country=CAN+CHN+ITA+KOR+ESP+SWE+GBR+USA+DEU


UK, Italy and Sweden on very similar paths. Spain worse. Canada looks slightly better at the moment but I'm very cautious about these figures. In a way what really matters is where the graph levels off - i.e. what proportion of your population does this thing eventually kill.  Extrapolating (yes, dangerous) it looks possible that the final death rate in western countries may be of a similar order of magnitude although they may take different lengths of time to get there. Only South Korea and China look properly different.


Total confirmed cases/million
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-confirmed-cases-per-million-since-1-per-million?country=CAN+KOR+SWE+USA+CHN+GBR+ITA+ESP+DEU


Probably less useful due to the huge differences in testing but interesting.


--
Paul.
Polar Low
04 April 2020 18:18:18

Omg there’s some pric#s about 


Today some of call takers have taken a mixture of calls, one was a repeat caller on 999 who kept calling up saying he was going to go out again. Another call was about help in setting up paypal and how it works. None of these are Police matters, please think before you call
https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/12-ridiculous-excuses-people-ignoring-4013722


 

RobN
  • RobN
  • Advanced Member
04 April 2020 18:19:07

US demand for firearms surges amid pandemic


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52163523


 


"Weapons stores have been included as non-essential businesses and ordered to shut in some states, though this has resulted in legal challenges over whether this contravenes the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms."


The collective insanity of the US of A knows no bounds.


Rob
In the flatlands of South Cambridgeshire 15m ASL.
Gavin D
04 April 2020 18:27:03

Regional breakdown of Coronavirus deaths so far.



  • London - 1,179 (+127) 

  • Midlands - 905 (+266) 

  • North West - 462 (+97) 

  • North East and Yorkshire - 442 (+73) 

  • South East - 386 (+41) 

  • East of England - 378 (+70) 

  • South West - 187 (+52) 


University Hospitals Birmingham NHS Foundation Trust has recorded the most deaths so far with 203


Changes are with yesterday

Maunder Minimum
04 April 2020 18:34:35


 


Doesn't your daughter work for the NHS?


Originally Posted by: John p 


Yes she does and so does our son-in-law.


Problem is that we won't be able to afford universal healthcare if the economy is totally trashed.


We should have done what Taiwan did - closed borders to infected countries with full screening at ports - that is what I wrote to my MP in February to urge, but they would not listen. Therefore, the only realistic alternative is to move towards herd immunity - the best way to achieve that is to shield the most vulnerable groups and then to relax the lockdown. In my opinion, we should relax the lockdown by the end of this week, allow healthy people to enjoy Easter, gets the pubs and restaurants open again (but with internal distancing) and do everything we can to protect those most at risk from the virus.


Most healthy, younger people catch the virus and then recover.


New world order coming.
Justin W
04 April 2020 18:55:23


 


Yes she does and so does our son-in-law.


Problem is that we won't be able to afford universal healthcare if the economy is totally trashed.


We should have done what Taiwan did - closed borders to infected countries with full screening at ports - that is what I wrote to my MP in February to urge, but they would not listen. Therefore, the only realistic alternative is to move towards herd immunity - the best way to achieve that is to shield the most vulnerable groups and then to relax the lockdown. In my opinion, we should relax the lockdown by the end of this week, allow healthy people to enjoy Easter, gets the pubs and restaurants open again (but with internal distancing) and do everything we can to protect those most at risk from the virus.


Most healthy, younger people catch the virus and then recover.


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


The NHS would quickly be overwhelmed with critical cases. And so more people would die. That is why it frightened the bejesus out of HMG three weeks ago. It’s a non-starter. We have to reduce the amount of infection first and then relax the restrictions.


Yo yo yo. 148-3 to the 3 to the 6 to the 9, representing the ABQ, what up, biatch?
Hungry Tiger
04 April 2020 19:08:36

What we're dealing with. Some very good points here.


 


 







 
"We need Churchill’s can-do spirit to get our bureaucratic health system moving.
 


DANIEL HANNAN
 


So much for the idea that reforming the quango state was a side issue or distraction. In a crisis, the inertia of our executive agencies can become lethal. Consider Public Health England (PHE). In theory, that vast bureaucracy exists for precisely such an emergency as the present one. It has more than 200 executives on six-figure salaries, some of them earning more than the Prime Minister. For years, its busybody officials have hectored us about pizza and fizzy drinks. Yet the moment a real public health threat comes along, they prove useless.
 


A paper by Matthew Lesh of the Adam Smith Institute sets out to explain why the UK has conducted fewer tests for Covid-19 than comparable countries. It finds that the most successful nations, such as Germany, South Korea and the United States, were quick to push testing out to private laboratories. In Britain, by contrast, there was an early determination to concentrate the samples at PHE’s own facilities. “The UK’s Covid-19 testing has been dangerously slow, excessively bureaucratic and hostile to outsiders and innovation,” Lesh concludes. “PHE has actively discouraged use of private sector testing.”


Naturally, in politics, ministers get blamed for the shortcomings of public bodies. In an inversion of Baldwin’s quip about press barons, ministers have responsibility without power. Voters insist, for example, that they want an NHS free from political interference; yet they blame politicians, rather than the NHS, when things go wrong.
 


Hence the determination with which Matt Hancock, the Health Secretary, has taken control of the situation. He knows that he will be judged by the Government’s success in containing the disease. No voter wants to be told, at a time like this, that large bureaucracies are unresponsive. No voter wants to be reminded that, as late as February, PHE was fretting about inequality, while the World Health Organisation was telling us that racism was more dangerous than the coronavirus. People want action from their elected leaders.


And, by heaven, they are getting it. Hancock’s return from his seven days of self-isolation was like the teacher coming back to the classroom. After a week of lethargic daily briefings, it felt as if someone was in charge. There are to be more swab tests, more ventilators, more hospital beds, greater tracking and surveillance, and support for a British diagnostic capacity. “And I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh.”
 


The Prime Minister, perhaps even more than his Health Secretary, knows how Winston Churchillused to cut through bureaucracy by taking personal charge. “Action this day”, he would scrawl across memos. As Boris hauls himself from the pupa of his self-isolation, something similar is happening across Whitehall.


British commentators went weak at the knees when the Chinese managed to build a new hospital in Wuhan, but consider what has happened here: a mammoth new facility in east London completed in nine days, with regional hubs following in Glasgow, Harrogate, Manchester, Birmingham and Bristol. At the same time, clinical trials – an area where Britain can fairly be said to lead the world – are being stepped up.
 


True, we don’t yet have a reliable way to identify people who have previously recovered. But it is surely only a matter of time before one of the many tests currently in development is shown to have a high degree of accuracy. That will be our way out of this wretched situation. At the very least, antibody tests will allow immune people to get back to work. But they could do much more. If they suggest that infections were more widespread than was realised at the time, that there were many mild or asymptomatic cases, they might allow us to lift most of the current restrictions.


It is hard to see how else we can avoid years of poverty and unemployment. Politicians know that they are being judged solely by the number of coronavirus fatalities, which creates a perverse incentive to maintain the shutdown for longer than the hard science might suggest.
 


Suppose, for example, that growing evidence were to support the Swedish approach – that is, promoting social distancing and banning mass meetings, but otherwise leaving things open. Suppose (this is necessarily a conjecture, but not an unrealistic one) that we could be reasonably confident that infections had peaked by Easter. There would, I suspect, be overwhelming pressure to err on the side of caution, to keep the restrictions in place until we could be certain.
 


Look, after all, at the opinion polls. Fifty-four per cent back the Conservatives. Seventy-two per cent approve of the way the Government is handling the crisis. Ninety per cent support the ban on commercial activity (I refuse to call it a “lockdown”, a ghastly term borrowed from prisons). In the circumstances, all the pressure is for ministers to do things that are probably unnecessary, rather than run the slightest risk of being accused of not doing enough.


The cost of the restrictions is hard to measure, but no less painful for that. One of my university contemporaries , who has a history of mental health problems, has struggled terribly with confinement. A neighbour is facing the grimmest of hat-tricks: her business ruined, her house-move frozen and her cancer operation postponed. The village osteopath, who went from 300 patients a week to zero when the bans came in, has been forced into insolvency. Nationally, a million more people have been pushed on to benefits.


I am astonished by how many commentators duck these consequences by airily asserting that “lives matter more than the economy”. What do they imagine the economy is, if not the means by which people secure their welfare? The economy is not some numinous entity that exists outside human activity; it is the name we give to transactions among people aimed at maximising their wealth, health and happiness.
 


If shops and businesses (excluding only those which are judged disproportionately likely to accelerate infections, such as nightclubs) are able to open next week, we might yet escape the worst. Many firms teetering on the brink of bankruptcy could recover. But if the prohibitions remain in force into May, businesses will topple like dominos, and a decade of depression will ensue.


Anyone can follow public opinion. The measure of leadership is to anticipate it.

"



 


Gavin S. FRmetS.
TWO Moderator.
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South Cambridgeshire. 93 metres or 302.25 feet ASL.


Maunder Minimum
04 April 2020 19:10:28


 


The NHS would quickly be overwhelmed with critical cases. And so more people would die. That is why it frightened the bejesus out of HMG three weeks ago. It’s a non-starter. We have to reduce the amount of infection first and then relax the restrictions.


Originally Posted by: Justin W 


If we shield the most vulnerable, which is what we should do, that might not be the case.


Sweden will be an interesting case study.


However, if we had acted promptly - cancelling flights to and from infected regions, cancelling people's half-term breaks in the Alps or Spanish resorts, plus port screening combined with testing, quarantine and contact tracing for all suspected cases, that would have been far less costly to the economy than what is now being imposed.


So again, use the coming week to keep the lockdown, ensure the vulnerable are properly shielded and then relax - this lockdown cannot be kept in place indefinitely and with warmer weather coming, perhaps the strain on the health service could be manageable, since the vast majority of younger people without underlying conditions do come through an infection without requiring hospitalisation.


New world order coming.
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