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Whether Idle
17 April 2020 19:32:08


 


Absolutely shameful I agree.


One day, when the dust eventually settles, we’ll have to take a long hard look at this country, our politics and our priorities. 


Originally Posted by: Joe Bloggs 


The mistakes were made in January February and the first third of March.  The tin-pot Tories chose to ignore the warnings from top epidimiologists and went with the herd immunity strategy.


Imbeciles.


Dover, 5m asl. Half a mile from the south coast.
Maunder Minimum
17 April 2020 19:35:32

Apr 16th 2020


AS COVID-19 has spread around the world, people have become grimly familiar with the death tolls that their governments publish each day. These numbers give a better indication of a country’s trajectory than do counts of confirmed cases, which largely measure how many people have been tested. Nonetheless, official covid-19 death tolls still under-count the true number of fatalities that the disease has already caused at that point.


In many places, official daily figures exclude anybody who did not die in hospital or who did not test positive. Often the cause of death takes several days to establish, which creates a lag in the data. And even the most complete covid-19 records will not count people who were killed by other conditions that probably would have been treated successfully, had hospitals not been overwhelmed by a surge of covid-19 cases.


The best way to measure the full damage caused by such a medical crisis is to look at “excess mortality”: the gap between the total number of people who died from any cause during a given period, and the historical average for the same place and time of year. These numbers take longer to emerge. Some countries publish them with a few days’ delay, others after more than a year. EuroMOMO, a group of academics from 24 European countries, releases a weekly index. But it does not publish absolute numbers of deaths for each country.


However, the national statistical offices in a handful of Western countries have released some total mortality data to the end of March, as we first reported two weeks ago. A few—such as Italy and the Netherlands—showed an excess of deaths that was more than twice the official covid-19 tally for the same period. That discrepancy will surely be greater in poorer countries, which have less capacity for testing and treating patients. As more places start to publish their total mortality figures, The Economist will report and analyse them on this page.


Italy was the first European country to be overrun by the virus. On April 15th its official count of covid-19 deaths was over 21,000. Yet the true toll might have been double that. Giorgio Gori, the mayor of Bergamo, a northern town hit especially hard, has said that the official data are “the tip of the iceberg…too many victims are not included in the reports because they die at home.” The official covid-19 tally, published by the ministry of health, includes only people who tested positive before passing away.


So far, Italy’s national statistical bureau has published figures of deaths from all causes for only 1,450 of the country’s 7,900 municipalities, covering the period until March 28th. We have analysed a sample of these areas, including Bergamo, that contain 6.7m of the 10m residents in Lombardy, a region that has suffered nearly half the country’s official fatalities. By March 28th, the excess deaths in this sample had reached more than 9,000 in the previous five weeks, covering the entire period of the outbreak. At that point, the official covid-19 tally was 4,000. This suggests that the true toll was about 120% higher.


Spain has experienced a similar epidemic, with its official death toll approaching 19,000 on April 15th, according to data from hospitals. Like Italy, the country’s overall mortality data imply that the actual number is higher, although the extent of the undercounting is less severe. Spain’s national epidemiology centre is publishing regular figures for deaths from all causes in each region. By March 31st, these showed that there had been 13,000 excess fatalities nationwide that month, covering the entire period of the outbreak. The official covid-19 tally at that point was 8,000. This suggests that the true toll was about 60% higher.


France’s official death toll accelerated rapidly in April, after its central health authority began including people who died in nursing and care homes. By April 15th, nearly 40% of the 17,000 recorded national fatalities came from such institutions. This approach should mean that from now on the country will understate covid-19 deaths less severely than its European peers.


By April 3rd, the latest date for which the national statistical bureau has published data for deaths from all causes, there had been an excess of nearly 8,000 fatalities during the previous four weeks, covering the entire period of the outbreak. The official covid-19 tally from hospitals alone at that point was 5,000. This suggests that the true toll was about 60% higher.


Britain’s national statistical office is publishing data for deaths from all causes. It has also started to produce retrospective estimates of how many people died of covid-19 on any given day, after analysing the probable causes mentioned on death certificates. These revised covid numbers are shown in our charts. They are much higher than those published daily by the health ministry, which rely on the latest submissions from hospitals (and reached nearly 13,000 by April 15th).


By April 3rd, the latest date for which deaths from all causes are available, there had been around 7,000 excess deaths in England and Wales during the previous four weeks, covering the entire period of the outbreak. The revised covid death toll was 6,200—up from the 4,300 recorded in the health ministry’s daily data. This suggests that the true death toll was still about 10% higher than the revised covid tally.


So far, the number of official covid-19 deaths in the Netherlands has shown a much flatter trajectory than in other western European countries. On April 15th the tally stood at 3,100. However, this is because the national institute for public health, which publishes the daily figures, includes only people who have tested positive for the virus and died in hospital (often with a delay). By April 5th, the latest date for which the national statistical bureau has published data about deaths from all causes, there had been 4,000 excess deaths during the previous four weeks, covering the entire period of the outbreak. The official covid-19 tally at that point was 1,700. This suggests that the true toll was about 140% higher.


After trailing behind the death tolls of many European countries at first, America’s official death count has risen sharply. By April 15th it had recorded 28,000 victims, more than any other country. Though most American states do not publish recent records of deaths from all causes, such data are produced by the city of New York, the worst-affected area. Our chart shows its latest weekly figures, which ended on March 28th. These demonstrate an excess of about 1,400 deaths during the previous four weeks, covering the entire period of the outbreak, compared with 1,100 official covid-19 fatalities at that point.


The city has published some more recent data on total mortality, aggregated over a longer period, which suggest that excess mortality in the four weeks to April 11th was at least 7,000 (and probably much higher). We will show those data in our charts once they have been finalised and broken down by week.


On April 14th New York’s health department adopted a similar approach to Britain’s statisticians, by expanding its definition of covid deaths and analysing death certificates retrospectively. It found an additional 4,000 people who had “probably” died of the virus, to go with the 7,000 victims who had tested positive at that point. This should make the official covid-19 figures resemble the excess deaths more closely from now on.


Sources: ECDC; ISTAT; Ministero della Salute; Instituto de Salud Carlos III; Datadista; INSEE; Santé Publique France; ONS; Centraal Bureau van Statistiek; CDC; New York City Health


New world order coming.
Maunder Minimum
17 April 2020 19:37:52


 


The mistakes were made in January February and the first third of March.  The tin-pot Tories chose to ignore the warnings from top epidimiologists and went with the herd immunity strategy.


Imbeciles.


Originally Posted by: Whether Idle 


It was PHE which got it completely wrong, together with the WHO.


The Gold Star country was Taiwan and it is their example western Europe should have been following.


There was only one way to stop the early spread of the virus - stop all flights to and from infected regions, with port screening for everyone else!


New world order coming.
Caz
  • Caz
  • Advanced Member
17 April 2020 19:38:21


 


I bet you some people will still book cruise ships 


Originally Posted by: Heavy Weather 2013 

I will when I think it’s safe to, just as I would book a Caribbean all inclusive when it’s safe to.  If there’s one thing I am missing, it’s holidays. 


Market Warsop, North Nottinghamshire.
Join the fun and banter of the monthly CET competition.
Heavy Weather 2013
17 April 2020 19:40:34


 


What an an absolutely appalling state of affairs for the UK. 


Originally Posted by: Joe Bloggs 


Couldnt agree more. Terrible just terrible.


Mark
Beckton, E London
Less than 500m from the end of London City Airport runway.
Justin W
17 April 2020 19:41:57

The UK should have closed its borders and locked down in mid February. It is a massive failure which our supine press is letting the govt get away with because journalists are obsessed with two things:


1) Johnson as Churchill


2) When will the lockdown end?


What an absolute indictment of our country


Yo yo yo. 148-3 to the 3 to the 6 to the 9, representing the ABQ, what up, biatch?
Polar Low
17 April 2020 19:44:19

So we can catch it again? Which would make antibody test a waste of time.


Speaking in Geneva, the WHO's Dr Maria van Kerkhove said there was "no evidence" that having had the virus would guarantee immunity.


She said initial evidence did not suggest large numbers of people were developing antibodies after having the virus, meaning the chances of creating "herd immunity" were not high.

Justin W
17 April 2020 19:45:10


So we can catch it again?


Speaking in Geneva, the WHO's Dr Maria van Kerkhove said there was "no evidence" that having had the virus would guarantee immunity.


She said initial evidence did not suggest large numbers of people were developing antibodies after having the virus, meaning the chances of creating "herd immunity" were not high.


Originally Posted by: Polar Low 


It is deeply unsettling


Yo yo yo. 148-3 to the 3 to the 6 to the 9, representing the ABQ, what up, biatch?
Caz
  • Caz
  • Advanced Member
17 April 2020 19:45:52


I was going to book a med cruise in October this year stopping at Italy and Spain, so including the boat currently a triple whammy! The ship had lots of available rooms, but surprised the price went up in the last two weeks. The ship won't sail, could be none will in 2020.


Originally Posted by: Phil G 

We had planned to book another Far East cruise for this month, as convalescence for hubby after his op, which he was due to have but still hasn’t.  If he gets his op any time soon, we won’t now be going anywhere, even if they say it’s safe to do so.  It would be foolish to go out of the house post-op!   Yes, we’re missing not being able to go away but for now, we’re just happy to be alive. 


Market Warsop, North Nottinghamshire.
Join the fun and banter of the monthly CET competition.
Quantum
17 April 2020 19:46:24

If you don't develop antibodies to it then how do you recover from it?


 


2024/2025 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 3 days with snow/sleet falling
18/11 (-6), 19/11 (-6), 23/11 (-2)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)
2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.
18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)
2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Polar Low
17 April 2020 19:46:55

We’re does that leave antibody test Justin if true surely a waste of money and time


 



 


It is deeply unsettling


Originally Posted by: Justin W 

Joe Bloggs
17 April 2020 19:47:06

I remember Professor John Ashton ranting and raving on BBC Question Time back in March. 


He was dismissed as a bit of a loon. An eccentric nutty professor type. 


Turns out he just knew his stuff, and he was 100% spot on. 



Manchester City Centre, 31m ASL

Bugglesgate
17 April 2020 19:47:22


It's   cheaper to put underpants on your head, 2 pencils up your nose and keep saying "wibble".


... Oh wait, that didn't actually work did it ?


 


 


Chris (It,its)
Between Newbury and Basingstoke
"When they are giving you their all, some stagger and fall, after all it's not easy banging your heart against some mad buggers wall"
Saint Snow
17 April 2020 19:47:59


The UK should have closed its borders and locked down in mid February. It is a massive failure which our supine press is letting the govt get away with because journalists are obsessed with two things:


1) Johnson as Churchill


2) When will the lockdown end?


What an absolute indictment of our country


Originally Posted by: Justin W 


 


Should have introduced quarantine of people arriving in the country from any other country that had reported CV cases.


That should have happened at the end of January. 



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
llamedos
  • llamedos
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
17 April 2020 19:50:45


 


It's   cheaper to put underpants on your head, 2 pencils up your nose and keep saying "wibble".


... Oh wait, that didn't actually work did it ?


 


 


Originally Posted by: Bugglesgate 


"Life with the Lions"

TWO Moderator
roadrunnerajn
17 April 2020 19:50:57


 


The mistakes were made in January February and the first third of March.  The tin-pot Tories chose to ignore the warnings from top epidimiologists and went with the herd immunity strategy.


Imbeciles.


Originally Posted by: Whether Idle 

They don’t care..Even if all the minsters involved resigned this evening under a barrage of rotting cabbages they would all be fine. Most wouldn’t need to work again if push came to shove,


I have no doubts that there will be a public inquiry at the end of this with the age old phrase being pedalled out ... We will see what lessons can be learnt!


Any inquiry will take several years and at the end we’ll get a wishy/washy report which most people will just raise an eyebrow at and carry on with their lives.


Germoe, part of the breakaway Celtic Republic.
Polar Low
17 April 2020 19:51:18

No Idea Q got it here approx 20:18


What about T cell memory? From what I’ve read


 


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52319956


 


 



If you don't develop antibodies to it then how do you recover from it?


 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 

roadrunnerajn
17 April 2020 19:55:02


 


It's   cheaper to put underpants on your head, 2 pencils up your nose and keep saying "wibble".


... Oh wait, that didn't actually work did it ?


 


 


Originally Posted by: Bugglesgate 


There are plenty of Baldrick’s in Government... you never know!


 


Germoe, part of the breakaway Celtic Republic.
Polar Low
17 April 2020 19:55:10

Indeed but 20 sold so must work  last one



 


It's   cheaper to put underpants on your head, 2 pencils up your nose and keep saying "wibble".


... Oh wait, that didn't actually work did it ?


 


 


Originally Posted by: Bugglesgate 

Heavy Weather 2013
17 April 2020 19:55:44


The UK should have closed its borders and locked down in mid February. It is a massive failure which our supine press is letting the govt get away with because journalists are obsessed with two things:


1) Johnson as Churchill


2) When will the lockdown end?


What an absolute indictment of our country


Originally Posted by: Justin W 


Ive noticed this. It’s like they have got bored with lockdown and now want to move the narrative on. But what they should be doing is asking about what is happening now and what more should have been done to prevent the disaster we are seeing now. It was so obvious to many on here this would happen.


We have lurched from one fiasco to the next and nearly have 15K deaths. I hoped it would never be this bad, now I fear it’s going to be much work. Terribly worse :(


Mark
Beckton, E London
Less than 500m from the end of London City Airport runway.
Rob K
17 April 2020 19:57:45


Updated trajectory. UK now beginning to curve and fall back inline with Italy.



Originally Posted by: Gavin D 


Remember when everyone was aghast at how terrible the situation was in *squints at graph* Iran?


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Quantum
17 April 2020 20:01:40


 


Remember when everyone was aghast at how terrible the situation was in *squints at graph* Iran?


Originally Posted by: Rob K 


Population density is alot more important perhaps?


I mean NI is comparable to Ireland with similar pop density whereas England is alot worse with a much higher pop density.


2024/2025 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 3 days with snow/sleet falling
18/11 (-6), 19/11 (-6), 23/11 (-2)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)
2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.
18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)
2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Whether Idle
17 April 2020 20:03:12


I remember Professor John Ashton ranting and raving on BBC Question Time back in March. 


He was dismissed as a bit of a loon. An eccentric nutty professor type. 


Turns out he just knew his stuff, and he was 100% spot on. 


Originally Posted by: Joe Bloggs 


Yes the biased BBC and the Tory gutter press (most papers) absolutely slated him.


Cretinous and criminal fuck-wittery.


Dover, 5m asl. Half a mile from the south coast.
Essan
17 April 2020 20:09:17


I have another ASDA story for fairweather!


Just got back from my local one in Wallington where they are breaking up couples and families and only allowing one member of a household into the store. The others have to wait outside. To make matters worse, they are only telling people when they get to the entrance after an hour long queue.


Makes no sense as people will just queue separately next time and pretend they don't know each other


Tesco do not have this policy. I imagine ASDA will lose a lot of custom if they don't change this 


 


Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 



At least one supermarket (Sainsbury?) have been running TV adverts for at least the past 2 weeks saying that only one adult should shop.

Although I would hope most adults with an IQ above 45 would not need telling this.   


Andy
Evesham, Worcs, Albion - 35m asl
Weather & Earth Science News 

Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job - DNA
Phil G
17 April 2020 20:10:05


We had planned to book another Far East cruise for this month, as convalescence for hubby after his op, which he was due to have but still hasn’t.  If he gets his op any time soon, we won’t now be going anywhere, even if they say it’s safe to do so.  It would be foolish to go out of the house post-op!   Yes, we’re missing not being able to go away but for now, we’re just happy to be alive. 


Originally Posted by: Caz 


Yes, definitely and even if this country gets its own house in order, what will be open outside. I suspect many country's will keep tourists down to a minimum. I just hope weatherwise we have  a decent summer so we can enjoy days out in the garden. Well they say when you are retired every day is a holiday. At times we will be able to forget the nightmare that's going on out there until we have to pop out.

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