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Quantum
09 February 2021 19:38:43

18Z cosmo looks the same as the 15Z.


No visible upgrade.


 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Polar Low
09 February 2021 19:45:33

Bit it is a argument sublimation because of low DP and wind speed variants normally associated with cold spells from the east.


when you use your AC on your car it’s is the dryer air and increased fan speed that evaporate the moisture on the screen similar effect to that of ice outside exposed to similar theories 


 Both posters have valid argument imo


 


 




Regarding sublimation.


Is the snow sublimating?


Yes. It always is, and with low dewpoints sublimation occurs at a faster rate. 


But


snow patches dissapearing in the middle of the daytime is not due to sublimation, that is nearly all melting. Though of course thin films of water will then evaporate quickly into dry air.


 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 

MStewart
09 February 2021 19:46:50

Back to the models.


This will be the most well-forecasted end to a cold spell if it occurs as shown  at the moment, if it was the other way around we’d all be urging caution.


saying that the GEFS ensembles has had cross member agreement for many runs now that a gradual warm up will occur and be maintained from the end of the weekend into fantasy island.


before that I’m quite interested if ground temperatures will increase back to near or above average though, especially with clear skies overnight and a good frost.


I really hope these don’t come off though.  If It does I’m looking for the warm up to end after a few days with a pattern shift back to colder, that’s been the case on many occasions this winter. 


As ever more runs are needed 


Mark
Twickenham
12m ASL
Quantum
09 February 2021 19:58:15


Bit it is a argument sublimation because of low DP and wind speed variants normally associated with cold spells from the east.


when you use your AC on your car it’s is the dryer air and increased fan speed that evaporate the moisture on the screen similar effect to that of ice outside exposed to similar theories 


 Both posters have valid argument imo


 


 


 


Originally Posted by: Polar Low 


I haven't worked through the calculations but the effect of sublimation will be very small compared to melting. Where sublimation does come into play is on the surface of snow flakes as they fall through the air. Thin films of water with a large surface are will evaporate and keep the flake solid. Its partly why its snowing everywhere despite temps being sometimes above freezing.


Anyway the dominant factor will absolutely be melting in the strong sun.


 


 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Polar Low
09 February 2021 20:08:55

To be honest Q if it was a exam I would use  both SD and Brian’s as part of the answer.


Yes basic principle you have used here is correct in that going directly from the ice to vapor and bypassing the liquid phase entirely.


ie Sublimation 


 



 


I haven't worked through the calculations but the effect of sublimation will be very small compared to melting. Where sublimation does come into play is on the surface of snow flakes as they fall through the air. Thin films of water with a large surface are will evaporate and keep the flake solid. Its partly why its snowing everywhere despite temps being sometimes above freezing.


Anyway the dominant factor will absolutely be melting in the strong sun.


 


 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 

Gandalf The White
09 February 2021 20:16:32


12z GEM for Sunday 12pm: - Double figure temps into SW



12z GFS Op for Sunday 12pm: - Temps merely reaching +3c



 


Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 


In these situations a better measure is not the 9c difference but the 100 miles difference in the positioning of the warm front.  At 5 days away that's really nothing at all in model terms.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


JRobinson
09 February 2021 20:17:53

Sublimation?


Evaporation?


Melting due to air temp?


melting due to indirect sunshine?


Who knows?


What I do know is that most of the 2cm of snow that fell overnight and was still there at midday, suddenly disappeared as soon as a heavy snow shower came along, trying to deposit more but ended up melting everything that was on concrete slabs, roads, drives, cars and rooftops.


We since had another shower about 3pm and this has restored the 1-2cm dusting we had this morning.


we had blue sky and sunshine between the showers today but no direct sunlight is possible anywhere in my back garden at this time of year.


If there had been no melting or sublimation we would be somewhere between 5-10cm which is present in certain spots on foliage and raised plastic garden furniture.


Plastic argument is complicated because it has always disappeared from my wheelie bins. But remained on my garden furniture.

Gandalf The White
09 February 2021 20:21:18


 


I haven't worked through the calculations but the effect of sublimation will be very small compared to melting. Where sublimation does come into play is on the surface of snow flakes as they fall through the air. Thin films of water with a large surface are will evaporate and keep the flake solid. Its partly why its snowing everywhere despite temps being sometimes above freezing.


Anyway the dominant factor will absolutely be melting in the strong sun.


 


 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


Having been in Canada, at latitudes equivalent to the south of France, and seen the effect of the sun when the air temperature was a lot lower than it's been here, I think that's essentially correct.


 


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


JRobinson
09 February 2021 20:25:32

Speaking topically.....looks like a sudden battleground breakdown seems to have evaporated from the models.


these snow showers are pants

Downpour
09 February 2021 20:33:12


Slightly O/T but it keeps being mentioned.


Vanishing snow in easterly winds is simply sublimation (evaporation from solid to vapour)


I first noticed this in January 1976 during a bitterly cold spell of south-easterlies after snow some days earlier.


Strong dry sub-zero winds are a feature of this set-up.


Originally Posted by: Sevendust 


 


Nope. Not in this case. 


UHI and/or warm earth. Very simple really. 


Chingford
London E4
147ft
fairweather
09 February 2021 20:43:40


 


I think people are overcomplicating this.


The melting only really occurs from about 11am to 2pm. A light dusting occured with me at just after 3pm which has not melted despite marginally positive temps between then and now.


Its the sun. Unless you have deep, compacted snow cover 300W/m^2 is alot and will make quick work of a thin patchy snow cover.


Thick cloud helps, but only brings it down to around 100W/m^2 during the showers.


I imagine a truly heavy shower or persistent snow would bring it down to 50W/m^2 which is what you need really. 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


That might be true for where you are but we haven't had even a minute's sun since this cold spell started. I've got scientific evidence that I'm right for this location.


S.Essex, 42m ASL
fairweather
09 February 2021 20:45:37


To be honest Q if it was a exam I would use  both SD and Brian’s as part of the answer.


Yes basic principle you have used here is correct in that going directly from the ice to vapor and bypassing the liquid phase entirely.


ie Sublimation 


 


Originally Posted by: Polar Low 


I tend to use scientific and factual visual evidence - but then that's just the old fashioned scientist in me!


S.Essex, 42m ASL
fairweather
09 February 2021 20:47:33


 


 


Nope. Not in this case. 


UHI and/or warm earth. Very simple really. 


Originally Posted by: Downpour 


  I think a few days ago I queried this with you but you are absolutely correct, for this time at our location. Soil type may of course be a factor. Saturated clay will be close to the day night average and only change slowly under the surface so given the lack of frosts in the last few weeks it will be a factor.


S.Essex, 42m ASL
Quantum
09 February 2021 21:39:07


Where our air is coming from by Sunday.


Isobars can be deceiving. For the vast majority of the UK its Bavaria. 2m temps in south Germany are between -5C and -10C during the day.


SW of Devon and NI its either the Canaries or the Mediteranian. The 18Z icon is a subtle upgrade on the 12Z which is keen to bring the orange source across the UK much quicker.


The red source doesn't really get anywhere mind you even on the 12Z.


 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Brian Gaze
09 February 2021 21:41:31


 


Disagree. I've seen this a number of times in the past


Originally Posted by: Sevendust 


If it is sublimation why are puddles forming?


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Quantum
09 February 2021 21:45:03

Sublimation is definitely occuring but really it's honestly not that much when the temperature is around 0C.


Again, if the snow is only dissapearing between 11am and 2pm then its clearly not the dominant factor. The dominant factor is without doubt the strong sunshine.


None of you complained about this during the frontal snow events. Weaker penetrating power through clouds. None of you complain about this happening at nighttime.


 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
squish
09 February 2021 21:46:41
18z ICON looks a tad chillier at +120 with a slightly more east of south component to the winds
D.E.W on Dartmoor. 300m asl
Downpour
09 February 2021 22:00:23


 


  I think a few days ago I queried this with you but you are absolutely correct, for this time at our location. Soil type may of course be a factor. Saturated clay will be close to the day night average and only change slowly under the surface so given the lack of frosts in the last few weeks it will be a factor.


Originally Posted by: fairweather 


 


Absolutely. For example, Epping Forest is entirely London clay. It’s not risen above freezing here for 50 hours. Yet when I went tobogganing earlier there were boggy patches in the valleys, the snow and the the ice weren’t thawing at all but were serving to insulate the warm earth beneath.


Chingford
London E4
147ft
Brian Gaze
09 February 2021 22:01:30


 


LOL reminds me of our little tiff in the BFTE. 😂😂😂


Deja vu or what?!


Originally Posted by: Joe Bloggs 


 Yes. Conditions in the last couple of days have been very similar. 


I can remember learning about sublimation as a schoolkid in the 80s and there were several opportunities to see it in action. What we had here yesterday was definitely not primarily sublimation. The wet surfaces and puddles told the story. I'm sure that with air temperatures being close to or below 0C an amount of sublimation was happening, but it was not the main cause of snow loss.


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
glenogle
09 February 2021 22:02:38


 


The weird thing with the ground heat theory though is that the last place for the snow to melt, for me at least, is bare soil! Today it disappeared from the grass, but the bare soil on the veg patch and the frozen muddy area where the grass had got trampled was still covered with frozen snowflakes. 


Surely if it was ground heat then bare soil ought to melt the snow too!


Originally Posted by: Rob K 


Bare soil is darker and radiates heat quicker.  Grass on the otherhand would potentially insulate the soil underneath and radiate slower thus retaining a higher soil temp than bare soil on its own.


UserPostedImage LLTNP 105m asl 
Brian Gaze
09 February 2021 22:03:12


Sublimation is definitely occuring but really it's honestly not that much when the temperature is around 0C.


Again, if the snow is only dissapearing between 11am and 2pm then its clearly not the dominant factor. The dominant factor is without doubt the strong sunshine.


None of you complained about this during the frontal snow events. Weaker penetrating power through clouds. None of you complain about this happening at nighttime.


 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


Just to make clear that the snow melt here yesterday took place under solid cloud cover. That was the reason I advanced the idea of heat being radiated back by the clouds.


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Quantum
09 February 2021 22:04:41


 


Bare soil is darker and radiates heat quicker.  Grass on the otherhand would potentially insulate the soil underneath and radiate slower thus retaining a higher soil temp than bare soil on its own.


Originally Posted by: glenogle 


We are not talking thick covers are we?


The grass melts faster because there are blades of grass sticking up, whereas soil forms a homogenous surface that is white and reflects the sun's rays.


I bet the surviving snow patches are on low lying beds completely protected from the south and the sun.


 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Crepuscular Ray
09 February 2021 22:06:24
Is this the Sublimation thread now? 😂
Jerry
Edinburgh, in the frost hollow below Blackford Hill
jhall
09 February 2021 22:08:47


 


Just to make clear that the snow melt here yesterday took place under solid cloud cover. That was the reason I advanced the idea of heat being radiated back by the clouds.


Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


I've noticed often that, when there's still frost on the grass in the shade on a sunny morning when the air temperature has reason a couple of degrees above freezing, as soon as the thinnest of clouds passes overhead it immediately melts.


Cranleigh, Surrey
Snow Hoper
09 February 2021 22:09:34
Flippin heck!

If your snow is going/gone/being eaten/melting does it really matter how? It's not going to bring it back!

Personally I'm more interested in the models.
Going to war over religion is like killing each other to see who has the better imaginary friend.


Home : Thorndon, Suffolk.

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