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Whether Idle
11 February 2021 18:51:16

The ECM is a lesson against mild ramping.


Dover, 5m asl. Half a mile from the south coast.
Quantum
11 February 2021 18:51:31

The WRF has a completely different trough development to the GFS at the surface.



However because the domain edges have the GFS solution 'baked in' we don't know what effect this has on the height rises.


 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Brian Gaze
11 February 2021 18:56:04

ECM has colder air getting back into the east.


https://www.theweatheroutlook.com/twodata/ecmwf.aspx


ECMP runs a little later and is out to 120 at the time of posting.


https://www.theweatheroutlook.com/twodata/ecmwfp.aspx?run=12&charthour=120&chartname=mslp500&chartregion=na&charttag=500hPa%20GPDM


 


 



Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Downpour
11 February 2021 18:57:02
According to tonight’s ECM...

News of the death of winter could have been greatly exaggerated.
Chingford
London E4
147ft
Downpour
11 February 2021 18:57:55


The ECM is a lesson against mild ramping.


Originally Posted by: Whether Idle 


 


Indeed. I have been guilty this week.


Feeling somewhat chastised. 


Chingford
London E4
147ft
Snow Hoper
11 February 2021 19:00:05

Cats and pigeons?



Going to war over religion is like killing each other to see who has the better imaginary friend.


Home : Thorndon, Suffolk.
squish
11 February 2021 19:00:35
Interesting !


D.E.W on Dartmoor. 300m asl
Quantum
11 February 2021 19:06:42

I think whatever the 6Z says tommorow will be what happens.


That trough development is absolutely crucial, and the changes needed are so tiny that any kind of unexpected development would throw the whole thing off.


So I expect a major flip on the 6z one way or another.


 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
doctormog
11 February 2021 19:11:54


I think whatever the 6Z says tommorow will be what happens.


That trough development is absolutely crucial, and the changes needed are so tiny that any kind of unexpected development would throw the whole thing off.


So I expect a major flip on the 6z one way or another.


 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


I would say the breakdown to milder conditions is pretty clear towards the second part of the weekend with cross model agreement of much milder conditions for at least a week. Average to a little above temperatures in most places for several days then possibly a bit cooler. There is of course room for a change but if that change doesn’t come then a transition to spring is more likely than a continuation of winter.


Quantum
11 February 2021 19:13:24

AROME has a much deeper trough than the low res 12Z models.



And on its back side a much larger height rise.


 


All the ensembles that have the cold solution together with the GFSpara6Z from yesterday have deep troughs that force a stronger more westerly height rise.


 


It could be as simple as this.


Low res models underestimate strength of trough. Trough is actually deeper and pushes low heights further south. Heights behind rise more sharply. This causes a pressure rise further west over the UK and keeps the tilt more negitive.


 


 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Ally Pally Snowman
11 February 2021 19:32:58


Cats and pigeons?



Originally Posted by: Snow Hoper 


Well the Met are going for another easterly with snow late February.  So would expect to see it in the output soon.


 


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Whether Idle
11 February 2021 19:36:19


AROME has a much deeper trough than the low res 12Z models.


 


And on its back side a much larger height rise.


 


All the ensembles that have the cold solution together with the GFSpara6Z from yesterday have deep troughs that force a stronger more westerly height rise.


 


It could be as simple as this.


Low res models underestimate strength of trough. Trough is actually deeper and pushes low heights further south. Heights behind rise more sharply. This causes a pressure rise further west over the UK and keeps the tilt more negitive.


 


 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


You may be onto something, but you probably are not.


Dover, 5m asl. Half a mile from the south coast.
Robertski
11 February 2021 19:38:24

 


I would say the breakdown to milder conditions is pretty clear towards the second part of the weekend with cross model agreement of much milder conditions for at least a week. Average to a little above temperatures in most places for several days then possibly a bit cooler. There is of course room for a change but if that change doesn’t come then a transition to spring is more likely than a continuation of winter.


Originally Posted by: doctormog 


We will see..wink

AIMSIR
11 February 2021 20:00:11


 


I would say the breakdown to milder conditions is pretty clear towards the second part of the weekend with cross model agreement of much milder conditions for at least a week. Average to a little above temperatures in most places for several days then possibly a bit cooler. There is of course room for a change but if that change doesn’t come then a transition to spring is more likely than a continuation of winter.


Originally Posted by: doctormog 

iI agree Doc . I reckon the push from the Atlantic will be  hard to resist as pressure drops in northern europe. The  high moves south east on the fax charts.


 

western100
11 February 2021 20:33:33


 


I would say the breakdown to milder conditions is pretty clear towards the second part of the weekend with cross model agreement of much milder conditions for at least a week. Average to a little above temperatures in most places for several days then possibly a bit cooler. There is of course room for a change but if that change doesn’t come then a transition to spring is more likely than a continuation of winter.


Originally Posted by: doctormog 


There’s not enough evidence for me to think anything other than a milder period from the weekend


Think some may be over analysing trying to find the outcome that maybe isn’t there?


Stranger things have happened but I don’t see the Atlantic not pushing enough to change the pattern 


Worcestershire / Warwickshire Border
100m ASL
Twitter…..@Weather4u2
Gandalf The White
11 February 2021 21:19:52


 


There’s not enough evidence for me to think anything other than a milder period from the weekend


Think some may be over analysing trying to find the outcome that maybe isn’t there?


Stranger things have happened but I don’t see the Atlantic not pushing enough to change the pattern 


Originally Posted by: western100 


A quick zip through the ECM 12z clusters and the most likely outcome is for high pressure to begin to reassert its influence to the east from Tuesday/Wednesday. Before that there's some support for the air flow to continue to have a continental flavour for the most eastern side but a strong preference for a more south-westerly flow.


But what is absent is any transition to a mobile flow.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Ally Pally Snowman
11 February 2021 21:25:30

ECM very much a cold outlier this evening.  A mild spell looks likely  now at least for a time.


 


 


http://www.meteociel.fr/cartes_obs/ecmwfens_display.php?x=312&y=142&run=12&type=0&runpara=0


 


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
western100
11 February 2021 21:25:58


 


A quick zip through the ECM 12z clusters and the most likely outcome is for high pressure to begin to reassert its influence to the east from Tuesday/Wednesday. Before that there's some support for the air flow to continue to have a continental flavour for the most eastern side but a strong preference for a more south-westerly flow.


But what is absent is any transition to a mobile flow.


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


I agree the output is not mobile and this is well supported. HP cells dominant N.Europe / C. Europe. ECM offers more retrogression northwards with strong WAA, that may lead to better positioning of a HP but I’d like to see other models do this. 


Now they were all showing at one point apart from the GEM, strong blocking to the North. That disappeared in the last 72 hours apart from the ecm which is showing it on some updates.


N. Europe will have a cold month and the western extent is looking milder


Worcestershire / Warwickshire Border
100m ASL
Twitter…..@Weather4u2
Polar Low
11 February 2021 21:30:26

Thursday ecm extended 11th Feb ran a few moments  ago


15th -22nd Feb


Looks a draw


High pressure Sweden low pressure MA


Cold s/e feed Eastern districts milder southerly feed west uk


No to big west push


22nd - 1st March


Intense area High pressure between Scotland /Norway Shallow low Mid A


cold wins cold easterly winds for all


1st -  8th


High pressure moving slowly west and in total charge centred around approx 60N 15.5 West


lovely sunny days where fog clears but cold at night


No clear signal on remaining dated Run


 


 


 

Brian Gaze
11 February 2021 21:33:55


ECM very much a cold outlier this evening.  A mild spell looks likely  now at least for a time.


http://www.meteociel.fr/cartes_obs/ecmwfens_display.php?x=312&y=142&run=12&type=0&runpara=0


 


Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 


This looked better for cold than the current op run.



Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
western100
11 February 2021 21:35:51


 


This looked better for cold than the current op run.



Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


 


That maintains a very strong Scandi block, would probably lead to cold. See what it shows tomorrow 


Worcestershire / Warwickshire Border
100m ASL
Twitter…..@Weather4u2
Brian Gaze
11 February 2021 21:44:48

I tweaked the GFS download and scripts earlier today to get the charts out a little quicker. Tempting fate, but at times on the 12z run the TWO download was running marginally ahead of all the others I compared it against. One thing to be aware of is that the check to determine whether to shade a button green is currently only made every couple of minutes, so sometimes new charts 2 or 3 time steps ahead will be shown even if the button is grey.


https://www.theweatheroutlook.com/twodata/gfs.aspx


 


 


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Quantum
11 February 2021 21:52:17

I've only looked up until 24h on the 18Z.


So far it looks like an upgrade on the 12z.


 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
squish
11 February 2021 22:18:21
The 18z op versus the parallel shows just how small tweaks can make such a difference.
Parallel looking like ECM
D.E.W on Dartmoor. 300m asl
Brian Gaze
11 February 2021 22:27:54

Looks like an upgrade in terms of warmth. 



Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan

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