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DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
20 January 2022 20:33:28

Hope springs eternal ...


https://www.wetterzentrale.de/topkarten.php?map=1&model=gfs&var=2&run=12&time=102&lid=P29&h=0&mv=0&tr=6#mapref


 


War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

Chichester 12m asl
David M Porter
20 January 2022 20:45:51

Think we need to see a negative AMO develop before any meaningful winters verify. As back in 70s/80s..although with a warming climate we may not see one as definitive as they were..

Originally Posted by: marco 79 


One never knows what might happen. As I noted above, we managed to get a sub-zero CET month in December 2010 for the first time in nearly 25 years and that, if memory serves me well, was the first sub-zero CET December since 1890 or thenabouts. Also worth noting that that also happened during the current period of a positive AMO. This was also only a year after Scotland in 2009 had its coldest December overall since the freezer of 1981 (the freeze in December 2009 began a week before Christmas, IIRC).


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
Gusty
20 January 2022 21:21:51


 One never knows what might happen. As I noted above, we managed to get a sub-zero CET month in December 2010 


Originally Posted by: David M Porter 


2010 is a world away now bearing in mind what has been happening since 2013. 


Steve - Folkestone, Kent
Current conditions from my Davis Vantage Vue
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Gandalf The White
20 January 2022 22:03:15


 


2010 is a world away now bearing in mind what has been happening since 2013. 


Originally Posted by: Gusty 


IIRC 2010 was right at the end of the last solar minimum, which is where we were last year.  I must admit I was hopeful for this winter based on that, even though it’s just one piece of a puzzle.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


GezM
  • GezM
  • Advanced Member
20 January 2022 22:28:48


Did somebody mention spring? laughing


Living in St Albans, Herts (116m asl)
Working at Luton Airport, Beds (160m asl)
BJBlake
20 January 2022 22:37:49


 


Not so many years ago I would be one to criticise such a statement, but there's no denying the climate is changing and the old rule of thumb that over a year the means normalize out is sadly no longer true and you can't say 'next month will be cold because the last three have been warm' anymore. The evidence is there to see.
I wonder if and when the next cold winter will come.


Still, stranger things have happened (March 2018 for instance)


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 

I fear that with each passing year - the chance gets lower. In my short lifetime on this planet, the change is massive - globally 1 degree c - since the 60s. Suffolk County Council stopped paying for annual snow drift fencing in East Anglia in 1996. back then the showers we had today would have been “East Coast Snow Showers” but instead it was 4 degrees C max, and cold rain. If you want snow, you need to go up a mountain. I am off to the Alps soon, as I have just got fed up waiting for a flake at home. 


It’s perfectly possibly to get snow given the right Synoptics, but getting those gets harder and rarer with each year. Interestingly (sadly) the low air flights have reduced global dimming, meaning that the more of the suns energy is now being trapped by the CO2 and methane. So its warmer since the pandemic. The only hope is short-term that the Gulf Stream will shut down from the rate of Fresh water melt Ice. This would be short-term, but might give a few cold winters, fr a decade perhaps, but experts consider the melt water is not sufficient to effect a shut down. Perhaps the Tonga volcano will seed the oceans with ironised dust and create a short-term algae bloom in the oceans, absorbing CO2, like 1995 and Mt Pinatubo.


Brecklands, South Norfolk 28m ASL
David M Porter
20 January 2022 22:58:23


 


2010 is a world away now bearing in mind what has been happening since 2013. 


Originally Posted by: Gusty 


Point taken, Steve. That said, and as I posted earlier, we were having broadly similar discussions on this forum 15 years ago when I was a newcomer to this place about whether or not cold winters and notable spells of cold in the UK were effectively consigned to the history books given what had occured over the previous 15 or so years. Very few, if any, of us at that time could have foreseen what was to happen in two successive winters only a few years later.


Also, as I think was mentioned previously, there doesn't seem to have been a lack of cold in others parts of the globe this winter. It seems to be that for whatever reason(s), the synoptics in our part of the world haven't played ball even though it seemed we were close to a cold spell according to the models in mid-December.


Back in the mid-noughties I did believe within myself that cold winters were still possible and a few years later I was proved to be correct, and I still have that feeling now. The 2020/21 winter overall wasn't exactly mild in my part of the world although I appreciate it may have been different elsewhere. I honestly don't believe that so much has changed in the last 8-9 years (very little time in climate terms) which makes our chances of cold winters very much less than was the case in 2013 and prior to then.


 


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
Gandalf The White
20 January 2022 23:55:39

Looking at the GFS ensemble options, around a third of them produce quite a sharp cold snap around two weeks ahead, driven by deep low pressure diving down to our east.


Equally there are other options on offer, including continued high pressure dominance.


The ensemble mean at T+300 shows a high pressure cell west of Iberia at 1,030 mb and low pressure just off the northern coast of Norway/Sweden; 850hPa values from -6c to 0c, north-east to south-west.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Gandalf The White
21 January 2022 00:00:33


I fear that with each passing year - the chance gets lower. In my short lifetime on this planet, the change is massive - globally 1 degree c - since the 60s. Suffolk County Council stopped paying for annual snow drift fencing in East Anglia in 1996. back then the showers we had today would have been “East Coast Snow Showers” but instead it was 4 degrees C max, and cold rain. If you want snow, you need to go up a mountain. I am off to the Alps soon, as I have just got fed up waiting for a flake at home. 


It’s perfectly possibly to get snow given the right Synoptics, but getting those gets harder and rarer with each year. Interestingly (sadly) the low air flights have reduced global dimming, meaning that the more of the suns energy is now being trapped by the CO2 and methane. So its warmer since the pandemic. The only hope is short-term that the Gulf Stream will shut down from the rate of Fresh water melt Ice. This would be short-term, but might give a few cold winters, fr a decade perhaps, but experts consider the melt water is not sufficient to effect a shut down. Perhaps the Tonga volcano will seed the oceans with ironised dust and create a short-term algae bloom in the oceans, absorbing CO2, like 1995 and Mt Pinatubo.


Originally Posted by: BJBlake 


There is a ‘triple whammy’ in play: the Arctic is less cold, so the air mass starts its journey slightly less potent; then warmer sea surfaces mean greater modification of the lower layer; then higher CO2 levels make surface air temperatures just slightly higher.  


Then, on top of that, there’s the changing climatology, as shown by Brian recently, where pressure to the south has risen a little. 


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


BJBlake
21 January 2022 01:13:29


 


There is a ‘triple whammy’ in play: the Arctic is less cold, so the air mass starts its journey slightly less potent; then warmer sea surfaces mean greater modification of the lower layer; then higher CO2 levels make surface air temperatures just slightly higher.  


Then, on top of that, there’s the changing climatology, as shown by Brian recently, where pressure to the south has risen a little. 


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 

That is actually very interesting and I thank you for that explanation. It makes a lot of sense to me. All rather a sad state of affairs, but apart from my driving an electric car and eating less meat, both of which I do, I cant do much about the rising CO2, and will just have to find a mountain once a year. We might get a March blast of transient snow - who knows.


Brecklands, South Norfolk 28m ASL
fairweather
21 January 2022 01:35:42


 


One never knows what might happen. As I noted above, we managed to get a sub-zero CET month in December 2010 for the first time in nearly 25 years and that, if memory serves me well, was the first sub-zero CET December since 1890 or thenabouts. Also worth noting that that also happened during the current period of a positive AMO. This was also only a year after Scotland in 2009 had its coldest December overall since the freezer of 1981 (the freeze in December 2009 began a week before Christmas, IIRC).


Originally Posted by: David M Porter 


I think that what you say is true but the gaps between severe cold spells are lengthening and they are shorter and less severe each time with less average snowfall in between. Furthermore the perception of cold and decent snow fall has been diluted. My grandchildren have only seen about two proper snow events  here in 20 years. They think a max of 4-5C is cold and 5 cm of snow would have them cheering with excitement.


S.Essex, 42m ASL
fairweather
21 January 2022 01:36:55

A quick glance at the 18z ensembles means it's time for bed and another Groundhog Day of weather awaits. (Bar the snow and cold of course!)


S.Essex, 42m ASL
Brian Gaze
21 January 2022 07:51:48


 


Point taken, Steve. That said, and as I posted earlier, we were having broadly similar discussions on this forum 15 years ago when I was a newcomer to this place about whether or not cold winters and notable spells of cold in the UK were effectively consigned to the history books given what had occured over the previous 15 or so years. Very few, if any, of us at that time could have foreseen what was to happen in two successive winters only a few years later.


Also, as I think was mentioned previously, there doesn't seem to have been a lack of cold in others parts of the globe this winter. It seems to be that for whatever reason(s), the synoptics in our part of the world haven't played ball even though it seemed we were close to a cold spell according to the models in mid-December.


Back in the mid-noughties I did believe within myself that cold winters were still possible and a few years later I was proved to be correct, and I still have that feeling now. The 2020/21 winter overall wasn't exactly mild in my part of the world although I appreciate it may have been different elsewhere. I honestly don't believe that so much has changed in the last 8-9 years (very little time in climate terms) which makes our chances of cold winters very much less than was the case in 2013 and prior to then.


 


Originally Posted by: David M Porter 


I don't think anyone is doubting that cold winters are still possible. The issue is whether the chance of any given winter being cold is reducing and my view is that it is. The simple analysis I did early last year suggests there is a reducing amount of "cold air" in the northern hemisphere during the winter months:  


https://www.theweatheroutlook.com/weather-news/5594/air-mass-temperatures-since-1961


Also, the NCEP chart that I frequently reference, because it is simple and to the point, shows a positive pressure trend to the south of the UK and a negative one to the north. 



Finally, it's clear that more months are above CET than below and unless the comparison period is reduced from 30 year to perhaps 15 that is likely to continue being the case, although there will of course be clusters of colder months in the mix. I'm not a stats guru but when I made this point the other day I wasn't talking about the last year as Taylor1740 implied. I was talking about the trend in recent years or even decades. 


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
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"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
21 January 2022 07:57:54

Copy and paste indeed. Yesterday's summary holds good:


WX Summary shows an interestingly large blob of cold air far out to the east but W Europe continues mild with (C isotherm still pushed back to the further side of Poland. Very dry week 1 for Europe generally, and drier than shown yesterday for week 2 though pptn is there for NW Britain and Norway. Just a slight shift today with some of the colder stuff heading S and rain more to the W of UK than to the N


Jet currently running N of Britain but moving S to affect Britain from Fri 1st; no long and strong flows, more a series of pulses. Again a slight shift, the move S-wards is more pronounced and now the line is mainly S of the UK


GFS op - HP still with us to Mon 31st just about fending off colder/cooler air over Europe then a series of troughs approaching from the Atlantic and stalling W of Ireland with S-ly winds until a major LP (as yesterday) establishes Sun 6th 945mb Rockall


GEFS temps soon becoming milder and staying there  or at least close to norm until Mon 31st, steadily in S but up and down mostly above norm in Scotland esp in NE; after which maybe a bit cooler generally but too much variation in ensemble members to be sure. Rain in an increasing number of ensemble members from around Tue 1st, not a lot in the SE, rather more and from a few days earlier in NW


ECM has HP centred further S so W-lies in force esp approaching 31st


War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

Chichester 12m asl
ballamar
21 January 2022 08:48:05
Well hopefully GFS op has picked up on something last chance for cold is blocking and that is prevalent. Straws to be clutched
Russwirral
21 January 2022 09:45:48
For the first time in say 10 days, the FI charts have started to look a little different.

Thats the highlight for this morning.
Gandalf The White
21 January 2022 10:28:32

For the first time in say 10 days, the FI charts have started to look a little different.

Thats the highlight for this morning.

Originally Posted by: Russwirral 


There have been hints in recent runs of the area of high pressure easing south and some signals for a pattern change.  The open question is what comes next, of course.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Russwirral
21 January 2022 10:29:53
cant help that after such a dry mid winter, a wet spring is on the cards.. .based on the balance of fortunes.

Weve enjoyed some fantastic springs recently. This year might buck the trend (has the winter)
DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
21 January 2022 10:36:04

cant help that after such a dry mid winter, a wet spring is on the cards.. .based on the balance of fortunes.

Weve enjoyed some fantastic springs recently. This year might buck the trend (has the winter)

Originally Posted by: Russwirral 


The old 'Law of Averages' fallacy, not a good basis for forecasting


War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

Chichester 12m asl
Saint Snow
21 January 2022 10:39:19

The open question is what comes next, of course.


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


 


Smart money is on "flow from a westerly quadrant, wet at times (especially in the north and west) and temps around 10c"


Horrendous climate we have in the UK.



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Russwirral
21 January 2022 10:57:16


 


The old 'Law of Averages' fallacy, not a good basis for forecasting


Originally Posted by: DEW 


 


Depends how big your average window is... For me in Wirral - it tends to follow this rule fairly well.


If its been prolonged warm, you can bet you can get a prolonged cold (typically the warm comes in the Winter, and the cold int he summer)


 


If its been prolonged wet - we will have prolonged dry.  For reference: we had 130% rainfall in December, we are at 40% in January.  Kinda balancing it out.  I would bet quite strongly March will come in around 130% rainfall.


Taylor1740
21 January 2022 11:05:19


 


I don't think anyone is doubting that cold winters are still possible. The issue is whether the chance of any given winter being cold is reducing and my view is that it is. The simple analysis I did early last year suggests there is a reducing amount of "cold air" in the northern hemisphere during the winter months:  


https://www.theweatheroutlook.com/weather-news/5594/air-mass-temperatures-since-1961


Also, the NCEP chart that I frequently reference, because it is simple and to the point, shows a positive pressure trend to the south of the UK and a negative one to the north. 



Finally, it's clear that more months are above CET than below and unless the comparison period is reduced from 30 year to perhaps 15 that is likely to continue being the case, although there will of course be clusters of colder months in the mix. I'm not a stats guru but when I made this point the other day I wasn't talking about the last year as Taylor1740 implied. I was talking about the trend in recent years or even decades. 


Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


Yes I think what you are saying is that it's more that the synoptic patterns have changed recently so that pressure is higher to the South and lower to the North which on average leads to more west and south westerlies and less Northern blocking and easterlies in Winter.


Though I remember around 2009-2013 quite a few people were saying that less Arctic sea ice would lead to more Northern blocking and a more meandering and southwards Jetstream to explain the cold winters at the time in a way that fitted their narrative. Whereas now we are saying that a warmer world is actually leading to the opposite with a Jetstream shifted Northwards causing milder Winters, so it has to be one or the other it can't be used to explain all possibilities.


However I don't think anyone can rightly argue that it is simply too warm now for proper snow in the UK as David points out. We only have to look at the cold spells other parts of the world are having and the recent examples of the cold April last year, March 2013, December 2010 etc. I fully expect we will get a severe Winter again similar to 2009/2010 at some point in the next 10 years, we just need to get lucky with the synoptic pattern.


NW Leeds - 150m amsl
Saint Snow
21 January 2022 11:18:51


 


 


Depends how big your average window is... For me in Wirral - it tends to follow this rule fairly well.


If its been prolonged warm, you can bet you can get a prolonged cold (typically the warm comes in the Winter, and the cold int he summer)


 


If its been prolonged wet - we will have prolonged dry.  For reference: we had 130% rainfall in December, we are at 40% in January.  Kinda balancing it out.  I would bet quite strongly March will come in around 130% rainfall.


Originally Posted by: Russwirral 


 


The nature of our climate dictates that we'll get spells of wet and dry, of warm and cold. There's no 'balancing out' per se, and it's more a case of us humans seeking patterns in natural and random occurrences 



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Russwirral
21 January 2022 11:30:17


 


 


The nature of our climate dictates that we'll get spells of wet and dry, of warm and cold. There's no 'balancing out' per se, and it's more a case of us humans seeking patterns in natural and random occurrences 


Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 


 


based on that point - and the fact we have had such a snow deficit over the last few years, that im fully expecting to open up a Wirral Ski resort for the next 20 yrs based on my analysis.


Brian Gaze
21 January 2022 11:52:29


 


 


Smart money is on "flow from a westerly quadrant, wet at times (especially in the north and west) and temps around 10c"


Horrendous climate we have in the UK.


Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 


My view is that winter often delivers the UK's most boring synoptics. That's not an attempt at trolling by me and I fully understand that a lot of people on the forums focus on winter because of the possibility of snow.


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan

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