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fairweather
29 November 2022 22:59:00

Yes, it really is quite impressive!
 

Originally Posted by: doctormog 


It certainly is. I just like to imagine the traffic on here if that chart is the same on Thursday December 8th  🤑😲
S.Essex, 42m ASL
Rob K
29 November 2022 23:08:44
Ok there are the SWerlies by 342 hours on the GFSP 😀
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
ballamar
29 November 2022 23:59:45
Won't take the GFS too seriously unless it becomes consistent. Pretty certain will look different tomorrow 
The Beast from the East
30 November 2022 02:25:11

GFS making much more of the low pressure and pushing it northwards keeping most of Europe in milder air apart from Scandinavia. 

With GEM also poor this evening the ECM is looking like the odd man out. Still no sign of any southwesterlies though 😉

Originally Posted by: Rob K 


Its very hard to get an old fashioned clean easterly flow these days, perhaps because of warmer waters helping to trigger these spoiler lows. 
I dont think this spell will qualify as one of Darren's fabled mid winter easterlies as there is no cold to tap into for the moment at least
"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Rob K
30 November 2022 06:21:29
Well that's quite a turnaround from the GFS. The signal for. Or there blocking seems to have been more or less switched off within 12 hours, at least on op and parallel. Still some cold options on the ensembles though. 
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Ally Pally Snowman
30 November 2022 06:26:21

Well that's quite a turnaround from the GFS. The signal for. Or there blocking seems to have been more or less switched off within 12 hours, at least on op and parallel. Still some cold options on the ensembles though. 

Originally Posted by: Rob K 



Yes but the GEM and a good chunk of the GEFS seem to have followed last nights ECM . 
 
Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Jiries
30 November 2022 06:51:09
What ever happen is down to evil HP that ruin our weather and kill off any interesting weather types from snow to thunderstorms by bring weeks of cloudy weather and static temps like this week very boring one.  To get clean easterly for snow  or clear skies this cloudy HP need to move away for good riddance.  Used to like HP but after last summer to today date poor positioned HP is preventing any weather like snow frost hail sunny and variety of temps.  Cyprus had lot of storms and early snow in Troodos.  Some one posted lot of lightning at night in Limassol made me sad that I dont see that here since last century.  
doctormog
30 November 2022 06:56:15
It looks like the ECM is sticking to its guns on the 00z run.
nsrobins
30 November 2022 06:59:28
Typical model jitters is what I'm seeing, and it happens in every spell where there is a lot more scrutiny of every run going on. We're dealing with the extended guess range and the sort of thing happening in FI on the GFS is almost to be expected. 
And if you need another example, look at the 00Z ECM just completing 😂
Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Ally Pally Snowman
30 November 2022 07:06:01
Yep rock solid ECM.  Excellent run.
 
Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Gooner
30 November 2022 07:11:28

 https://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf/runs/2022113000/ECH1-240.GIF?30-12 

 https://modeles16.meteociel.fr/modeles/gens/runs/2022113000/gensnh-0-1-288.png 

 ECM and GFS Control are excellent 
Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Gooner
30 November 2022 07:22:48
 https://modeles16.meteociel.fr/modeles/gens/runs/2022113000/gensnh-31-1-288.png 

Just to throw the  GFS mean in for good measure 

 
Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


nsrobins
30 November 2022 07:30:28
We need operational Cross Model Agreement at 120hrs before warming the mulled wine. We're not there yet.
Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Jiries
30 November 2022 07:35:00
Yes Neil and need to count down days and not at day 10 stuff just like when models predicted 40C and counted down without problem apart from few days delayed from 15th to 19th July. 
Hippydave
30 November 2022 07:37:25
As some of the posts above have said, a nice looking ECM op this morning and the GFS London ens are reasonable (and essentially consistent with the 12z set I looked at). 

The GFS op still shows a lot of Northern blocking and a strong Greenie HP. It's a bit further West and the core of the HP retrogresses even further West and that combined with a stronger push from LP to the South or South West results in milder air for some of the country in the medium and longer term. 

The general pattern is similar to ECMs op IMO and just shows how succeptible this kind of setup is to small adjustments making a big difference on the ground (for some). That's nicely illustrated by looking at the Aberdeen ens, which show the op and control being generally colder in the mid to longer term, a brief blip aside.

So far the initial chilly Easterly is essentially nailed on, the transition to Greenie HP looks strongly favoured, it's just a case of whether that results in cold air for the whole of the UK or the colder air is mostly restricted to the Northern half. Interesting times🙄😁

 
Home: Tunbridge Wells
Work: Tonbridge
Brian Gaze
30 November 2022 07:56:15
A notable shift from the GEFS in the last 24 hours to less cold between 05/12 and 09/12, but the opposite trend in the longer term, at least for now.

https://www.theweatheroutlook.com/premium/gefs-tables.aspx?run=00&fv=tmp850&loc=london&lat=51.5&lon=0&p=&cty= 
 
Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Tim A
30 November 2022 07:56:42
If we don't get any cold weather in 10 days of so time, I don't think it is a massive failure.   We have always been talking about the very much extended range in a lot of this , a favourable pattern has looked like evolving at the range but without the serious cold.  There has never been consistant runs which have shown deep deep cold and talk of being the most exciting start to winter since X are a bit OTT in my view, because it would only be the most exciting start to winter if some of the better charts verified and we forget most winters there are some seriously exciting charts which either get watered down or don't verify (although psycology of using the outline COBRA runs as a benchmark are also a factor).  Last winter was also a very exciting start, first there was cold and snow around Storm Arwen and then loads of excitement around the Christmas spell which ended up not verified due to underestimated heights from the South .

Nevertheless, the models have caught my interest and I hope the ECM is somewhere near correct. I think GFS does overdo shortwaves, but it has also proven to be correct.  Nothing is ever as clean and simple as it appears at 240 hours on an ECM chart. 
 
Tim
NW Leeds
187m asl

 My PWS 
Rob K
30 November 2022 08:00:07
Well having looked at the ECM and the extended GEFS I have no idea what is going on now!
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Brian Gaze
30 November 2022 08:11:40
Interesting that with the exception of the IRI the seasonal models almost universally agree on a mild winter. Also, GEFS35 which is based on yesterday's 00z continues to point towards it turning milder during the second half of December. I wonder if this is fool's gold for cold weather fans?

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Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Hippydave
30 November 2022 08:20:58

Well having looked at the ECM and the extended GEFS I have no idea what is going on now!

Originally Posted by: Rob K 



I did think your earlier post was a little pessimistic given what I'd looked at!

Probably personal bias but I tend to get excited when Scandi HP derived Easterlies are shown at circa 10-11 days but not by Greenie based HP weather, simply because the general pattern for the latter can verify and still bring me mild weather whilst (broadly) I'll at least get some cold out of a Scandi type HP even if it's just low level stuff. Further North I can see the reason for wanting a Greenie HP set up, particularly because if LP is more influential for the South that means there's a boundary somewhere with a lot of precipitation thrown in and that's good for areas further North than me.

I don't know whether it's the Greenland plateau effect, the complexity of the energy in the Atlantic and the interaction with the warmer seas, colder air and mild air etc. but Greenland HPs just seem to me to flatter to deceive and rarely pan out favourably IMBY even if the general pattern verifies. 

All that aside there's definite potential in the 10 day range, just not something I'm getting excited about given how far away it is and the fact things will have to fall very favourably for me to see anything wintry. It's a welcome change to the recent relentlessly above average setup though😁
Home: Tunbridge Wells
Work: Tonbridge
DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
30 November 2022 08:24:50
WX temp chart continues to have a respectably sized amount of cold air swashing about. The 0C isotherm lies from Scandinavia to Turkey for both week 1 and week 2, but the area to the east becomes colder within that limit. Western Europe becomes a little milder from the SW, up as far as W Germany; Britain if anything becomes a little colder. Rain or snow for Atlantic coasts and into the Med in week 1; still there in week 2 but with more emphasis on the Atlantic including a significant increase over England.

GFS Op - ridge of HP from Scandinavia reaching SW across Britain, achieving 1040 mb Norway Sat 3rd. Then a slow and rather complicated decline with the HP withdrawing to Russia, by Wed 7th shallow LP centres 1005 mb Brittany (SE-lies for UK) and 1020mb Sweden. These coalesce into a broad trough from a centre near Spain stretching NE to N Norway until Mon 12th. Then the LP fills and moves N to the N Sea Thu 15th with the chart suggesting it could either link to deeper LPs on the Atlantic or N Russia or both.

ECM - splits from GFS around Wed 7th with the LP centre over Bittany linking to LP N Norway and bringing in strong cold NE-lies from Thu 8th onwards, source of air N Siberia; and a much stronger Greenland block keeping Atlantic activity well away to the SW.

GEFS - mean temp and most ensemble membersa few degrees below seasonal norm through to Fri 16th - control and op playing games, the former incredibly mild in the S for a few days near 10th Dec before rejoining the cold suite; the latter warming up also in S at the end, Small amounts of pptn in various runs from Mon 5th, snow row figures around 5 in week 2 in the S/SW, around 10 in E and in Scotland
War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

Chichester 12m asl
nsrobins
30 November 2022 08:46:06



I don't know whether it's the Greenland plateau effect, the complexity of the energy in the Atlantic and the interaction with the warmer seas, colder air and mild air etc. but Greenland HPs just seem to me to flatter to deceive and rarely pan out favourably IMBY even if the general pattern verifies. 

Originally Posted by: Hippydave 



I think this is an issue. The 'plateau' effect means charted SLPs at elevated altitudes are often anomalously high, which is why with Greeny highs I look at heights. If high SLPs are combined with raised heights (into the yellows) it's more of a real presence.

The verification stats at 10 days (500hPa) has GFS at 0.37 and EC at 0.45 so statistically at least you'd side with the longer range EC over the GFS (OPs). Lots to be resolved - and it wouldn't be a proper silly season if that wasn't the case 😉

 
Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Gandalf The White
30 November 2022 08:47:26

I did think your earlier post was a little pessimistic given what I'd looked at!

Probably personal bias but I tend to get excited when Scandi HP derived Easterlies are shown at circa 10-11 days but not by Greenie based HP weather, simply because the general pattern for the latter can verify and still bring me mild weather whilst (broadly) I'll at least get some cold out of a Scandi type HP even if it's just low level stuff. Further North I can see the reason for wanting a Greenie HP set up, particularly because if LP is more influential for the South that means there's a boundary somewhere with a lot of precipitation thrown in and that's good for areas further North than me.

I don't know whether it's the Greenland plateau effect, the complexity of the energy in the Atlantic and the interaction with the warmer seas, colder air and mild air etc. but Greenland HPs just seem to me to flatter to deceive and rarely pan out favourably IMBY even if the general pattern verifies. 

All that aside there's definite potential in the 10 day range, just not something I'm getting excited about given how far away it is and the fact things will have to fall very favourably for me to see anything wintry. It's a welcome change to the recent relentlessly above average setup though😁

Originally Posted by: Hippydave 



On the modelling of a Greenland High, over the years here we have discussed your point about the effect that the plateau seems to have on the models.  For that reason I discount charts that show high SLP unless there's associated upper heights; that's tended to be a good guide.  

The repeated WAA being driven north is another fairly reliable indicator.

Lastly, I was very surprised to hear the forecasters showing a chart for later next week with a significant Greenland high and talking about it turning 'very much colder'.  It's really unusual for such comments about a major pattern change at this range.  That suggests a lot of confidence - at this stage.
Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


David M Porter
30 November 2022 08:53:51
The model runs at the moment remind me a lot of what we saw on a number of occasions in the period from early 2009 to early 2013, certainly in respect of vast northern blocking. Other than early 2018, it is quite a while since we were seeing runs like the present ones on a daily basis.
Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022

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