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Rob K
06 January 2024 23:39:58

I can see the numerous data suggesting snow flurries across the SE on Monday but it’s Sat night and the silence from the MetO is deafening. 
Let’s see what happens but the experienced input AKA the MetO forecasters should not be discounted.

Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


Yes I agree. Both BBC and Met Office have it bone dry and even the usually over optimistic iPhone app says zero precipitation expected here in the next 10 days! 

Edit: just checked the Beeb output for here and although the text forecast still says dry (twice!) there is now one sleet symbol on Monday afternoon and even a few light snow symbols on Monday night. MO raw output has also now produced a couple of snow symbols. 


A shame though that what looked at one stage like just a little appetiser for the main event now looks likely to be the entire “feast”.
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Gandalf The White
07 January 2024 00:07:06

I can see the numerous data suggesting snow flurries across the SE on Monday but it’s Sat night and the silence from the MetO is deafening. 
Let’s see what happens but the experienced input AKA the MetO forecasters should not be discounted.

Originally Posted by: nsrobins 



Yes, I noticed the total silence about any chance of sleet or snow for the SE, yet the 12z fax chart shows a trough moving east to west during Monday evening.  I assume they’re expecting just a band of cloud; a few snowflakes wouldn’t really be worth mentioning.

https://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ukmo2.php?ech=60&carte=2000 
 
Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


backtobasics
07 January 2024 00:12:29
10 dry cool / cold days would be brilliant, especially with the flooding we've had here !!

Models suggesting  plenty of cool or cold (depending on location) air aloft in next 10 days and tbh nothing is yet off the table.

its good to see some TWO posters still offer the same 'entertainment' as ever though.  It, wil soon be spring and then you can go back to living normal lives 😅
 
Gandalf The White
07 January 2024 00:14:26

Yes indeed all those expectations of a strong PV displacement, SSW, HLB, negative NAO etc, but it now looks like a few colder drier days and then back to an Atlantic dominated pattern with really not much to shout about when it's all over.

Hope I'm wrong but don't see that much hope for anything memorable.

J

Originally Posted by: shepherd 



I don’t think anyone is predicting anything ‘memorable’ in the sense of something out of the ordinary?   That aside, whilst it looks dry and cold, there’s nothing suggesting a rapid return to an Atlantic dominated pattern, unless you peer into the uncertain far reaches of the GFS 18z Op run.  Indeed, a quick run through the postage stamps for Day 10 shows only a couple of perturbations bringing in a mobile westerly flow.
Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


07 January 2024 00:43:19
I'd like a frost please.
Berkshire
fairweather
07 January 2024 00:51:01

Yes, the Op run has the evolution nailed on for 15 days from now doesn’t it……

🙄

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


It's crazy isn't it that people are giving up on this after one run or two. There have been fluctuations in both directions but always fairly minor in my opinion. The models and the weather aren't the same thing either. I've had many a cricket match bandoned by rain that wasn't on any model or forecast the day before!
S.Essex, 42m ASL
UncleAlbert
07 January 2024 01:18:02

I'd like a frost please.

Originally Posted by: The Dub Version 


Good shout!  Amazing to think that the pattern change has only just happened and already we are looking at what may
be a return to 'normal service' within 12 days.  Sometimes I pine for the days when all that we had was 3 day models of the synoptic type!  Well, I so enjoyed the fine weather this Saturday and yes a snowfest for the South does look somewhat less likely from current output, but please let's at least have some more like today before any return to  default!
Rob K
07 January 2024 01:52:58

I'd like a frost please.

Originally Posted by: The Dub Version 


The way things are going an air frost in the south will be worthy of an Amber warning in a year or two. 
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Retron
07 January 2024 04:27:44
So, as expected the MetO have cottoned onto the snow risk down here for Monday. It's unlikely to be anything to write home about, but it will be nice for people to see some snow falling! The raw has sleet here, but with -10 850s I would expect pure snow from it, assuming the precipitation coincides with the coldest air aloft. A few miles inland it's showing as light snow on the automated output.

My unease over the transition to the northerly is now full-blown cynicism following a frankly rubbish day of models yesterday, and I continue to feel this is the best chance of seeing snow for quite a while for those of us in the SE. (I wouldn't be surprised to see another cold push later on, perhaps at the turn of the month, as the next weakening in stratospheric winds affects things).

The MetO forecast for down here now says:

Tonight:
Wintry showers are expected to track across southeast England from the Thames Estuary during the early hours. Dry with clearer skies elsewhere. Cold with rural frost patches developing overnight. Minimum temperature 1 °C.
Monday:
Cloudy Monday with snow showers expected, these mainly across eastern areas. Wintry showers may spread west through the day. Dry overnight. Feeling very cold with brisk winds, strong towards coasts. Maximum temperature 4 °C.


As for the long term outlook, it's not very good if you're in the south and it's cold and snow that you're after. The ensembles took a turn for the worse yesterday evening, although there still remains a fair bit of scatter... it's too early to say "next, please!", but it's getting closer every run! We need a change, and we need it sharpish.

Again, were I "up north" I'd be much happier with the output.

Let's see what this morning's output brings!
Leysdown, north Kent
Retron
07 January 2024 05:22:26


Let's see what this morning's output brings!

Originally Posted by: Retron 


...and in the medium term, i.e. out to 168, the output brings good agreement of a weak ridge over the UK, as our high moves away westwards. A good deal of dry weather, then, with frosts for many.

It's beyond 168 that the fun starts, of course. ICON has the UK under a col at 180, with sub -8 850s over northern Scotland and above-zero 850s working their way northwards over SW England, in advance of an Atlantic low. A weakening front has brought snow to Scotland and northern England, with dry conditions elsewhere.

GFS keeps a weak ridge or a col over the UK out to 240, with sub -8 850s over the vast majority of the UK. It's mostly dry, though, with snow generally restricted to northern Scotland. There's further snow for parts of Scotland in the days after that, as the ridging declines. An Atlantic low then moves in, bringing wet and windy weather for all.

The GEFS, at the time of writing, are out to 192 - and show excellent agreement on a weak ridge or col over the UK. The interesting stuff happens afterwards, of course.

GEM is the coldest of the models this morning. It also has a weak ridge over the UK at 180, but beyond that the Atlantic low nearest to us fills, allowing an unstable northerly flow to cover the UK, bringing widespread snow. It's noteworthy too in that 500hPa heights are much lower than the other models, with the UK on the edge of the great Eurasian polar vortex lobe. Despite the snow and low heights, 850s struggle to reach -8 in the south; there are no such issues further north.

In a couple of hours the ECM will be out, and it'll be interesting to see what it serves up post-180.
Leysdown, north Kent
Retron
07 January 2024 05:42:02
The GEFS are now out to 252, and aren't much use by then (as with yesterday's 18z). There's everything on offer from mild SSW'lies to cold northerlies, cols, ridges and pretty much everything else you can think of.

The best that can be said is that it remains unlikely that there will be deep cold (-8 850s) in the south for long, but the further north you go the greater the chances of the cold hanging on for longer. That said, nothing can be ruled out - the wide scatter shows that everything's on the table, even if a specific outcome (be it persistent cold or a mild Atlantic flow) has a low chance.

Anything beyond 252 will be even less useful.

(The differences all come down to the handling of the jet, and what happens to those lows near the Azores. If they fill, or are shunted away east, then we get cold weather. If they engage the jet and our block declines faster then we get mild weather spreading in.)
Leysdown, north Kent
Retron
07 January 2024 05:47:21
Incidentally, for the first time in years - we have a -10 mean on the London GEFS.

https://www.meteociel.fr/cartes_obs/gens_display.php?x=&y=&ext=1&run=0&ville=Londres&lat=51.5085&lon=-0.12574&runpara=0&type=6 

...and a rare sighting of a 100% snow chance here. Hopefully I'll be posting in the "snow reports" thread tomorrow! 😁

https://images.meteociel.fr/im/17/22716/graphe_ens3yhe8.php.gif 
UserPostedImage
Leysdown, north Kent
Ally Pally Snowman
07 January 2024 06:57:25
Another day 10 special from the ECM.  Its a better run but it never quite delivers.  Always something not quite right. 

https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/topkarten.php?map=1&model=ecm&var=1&run=0&time=240&lid=OP&h=0&mv=0&tr=24#mapref 
 
Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
CField
07 January 2024 07:20:00

Yes, I noticed the total silence about any chance of sleet or snow for the SE, yet the 12z fax chart shows a trough moving east to west during Monday evening.  I assume they’re expecting just a band of cloud; a few snowflakes wouldn’t really be worth mentioning.

https://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ukmo2.php?ech=60&carte=2000 
 

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 

Yes I think the Dec 1st 2023 snow event for North Kent will deliver more than tomorrow's but you never know....some strong concentration needed looking at lampposts  the next 36 hours!
Favourite snowstorm
Famous channel low
Dec 31st 1978
Hastings East Sussex
Foot of level snow severe drifting
Next day max temp -4 degrees Celsius
backtobasics
07 January 2024 07:21:32

The GEFS are now out to 252, and aren't much use by then (as with yesterday's 18z). There's everything on offer from mild SSW'lies to cold northerlies, cols, ridges and pretty much everything else you can think of.

The best that can be said is that it remains unlikely that there will be deep cold (-8 850s) in the south for long, but the further north you go the greater the chances of the cold hanging on for longer. That said, nothing can be ruled out - the wide scatter shows that everything's on the table, even if a specific outcome (be it persistent cold or a mild Atlantic flow) has a low chance.

Anything beyond 252 will be even less useful.

(The differences all come down to the handling of the jet, and what happens to those lows near the Azores. If they fill, or are shunted away east, then we get cold weather. If they engage the jet and our block declines faster then we get mild weather spreading in.)

Originally Posted by: Retron 



Thanks Retron
Retron
07 January 2024 07:31:29

Yes I think the Dec 1st 2023 snow event for North Kent will deliver more than tomorrow's but you never know....some strong concentration needed looking at lampposts  the next 36 hours!

Originally Posted by: CField 


I'm expecting the opposite here, as that just bought sleet and soft hail here. I would expect to see some actual snow tomorrow, but I'm not expecting it to settle. (There will be some snow on the ground tomorrow in parts of Kent and beyond, I would reckon, just not this close to the coast).
Leysdown, north Kent
Joe Bloggs
07 January 2024 08:02:07
Excellent posts Darren, thank you. 👍

Manchester City Centre, 31m ASL

Joe Bloggs
07 January 2024 08:13:01
The output to me, looks pretty good. GEM op is superb. 

The height rises to our NW are getting into the reliable now, so I’d suggest that’s odds on. 

Where I lack confidence is the actual CAA into the UK, due to the potential for various different blockers showing in the output. For my part of the world I’d rate the possibility of a decent cold outbreak to be about 60% likelihood, higher further north, maybe a bit less further south. 

Manchester City Centre, 31m ASL

Crepuscular Ray
07 January 2024 08:15:29
Slightly OT. When I use the new look chart viewer on my mobile, the GFS charts nicely fill the screen. The other models are zoomed in close to the western Atlantic and I have to pan around. On the GEM i can't even pan, it's stuck on the western Atlantic

Up to a few days ago, all was fine and I've not tinkered with phone settings? Any techies out there to shed light?

 
Jerry
Edinburgh, in the frost hollow below Blackford Hill
Joe Bloggs
07 January 2024 08:27:45
I’ve just read a post on the other side which rings very true for me.

This potential cold spell is causing frustration because it appears we’re lacking a “trigger” for the cold air to come flooding south, once the heights are in place. Maybe a trigger low of some sort? 

Too many charts show high pressure over the UK not buggering off, despite the heights to our NW, preventing the CAA and keeping us in no-man’s land. 

I can’t explain it in a more sophisticated way than that sadly. 

Manchester City Centre, 31m ASL

Brian Gaze
07 January 2024 08:50:36

Slightly OT. When I use the new look chart viewer on my mobile, the GFS charts nicely fill the screen. The other models are zoomed in close to the western Atlantic and I have to pan around. On the GEM i can't even pan, it's stuck on the western Atlantic

Up to a few days ago, all was fine and I've not tinkered with phone settings? Any techies out there to shed light?

 

Originally Posted by: Crepuscular Ray 



Is that on TWO? 
Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Lionel Hutz
07 January 2024 08:51:44

Slightly OT. When I use the new look chart viewer on my mobile, the GFS charts nicely fill the screen. The other models are zoomed in close to the western Atlantic and I have to pan around. On the GEM i can't even pan, it's stuck on the western Atlantic

Up to a few days ago, all was fine and I've not tinkered with phone settings? Any techies out there to shed light?

 

Originally Posted by: Crepuscular Ray 



I think that the settings have been changed. I can't find the graph with the GFS ensembles any more. That's one of my first go-to's when I want an overview for the medium term forecast. 
Lionel Hutz
Nr.Waterford , S E Ireland
68m ASL



CField
07 January 2024 08:56:22
Just gone through the precipitation radar forcast for tomorrow on the Met Office and they are forecasting a fair narrow streamer flowing from 5am to 11am from a line Rochester -Maidstone- Tunbridge Wells -Brighton, a very similar line that was followed in early Dec 2009 event.Some red echos in there too so could be interesting. 
Favourite snowstorm
Famous channel low
Dec 31st 1978
Hastings East Sussex
Foot of level snow severe drifting
Next day max temp -4 degrees Celsius
Chunky Pea
07 January 2024 08:56:29

I'd like a frost please.

Originally Posted by: The Dub Version 



You can have some of mine. Freezing fog here. Still the same broad theme on mods. Cool to cold for the foreseeable. 
Current Conditions
https://t.ly/MEYqg 


"You don't have to know anything to have an opinion"
--Roger P, 12/Oct/2022
doctormog
07 January 2024 08:57:10
Looking at things from a different angle, the day 7 northern hemisphere profiles are fascinating this morning across the board:

GFS: https://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/GFSOPNH00_168_1.png 

ECM: https://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/ECMOPNH00_168_1.png 

GEM: https://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/GEMOPNH00_168_1.png 

ICON: https://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/ICOOPNH00_168_1.png  

The UKMO doesn’t have that view on WZ but essentially looks the same. The thing they all have in common is a cross-polar flow heading south in this direction. Very interesting, although how it actually turns when the time comes is a different matter entirely. Lots of potential and also lots of potential spoilers.

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