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White Meadows
24 November 2014 21:20:12


There are of course situations when chucks of data are missing or sections of the algorithm have not performed to well, but these are reported in statements and can (and often are) used as excuses when the models don't show what you're expecting them to show. For example, a classic flip from cold to mild on Boxing Day will be put down to the lack of transatlantic flights and data missing from lighthouses where the keepers have had one to many sherries


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


Ah yes that old classic Myth!! Always made me chuckle. 


Funnily enough there's never any evidence to support that theory. 

24 November 2014 21:24:18


If anyone has a link to the latest verification stats I would be most grateful  


Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 


Here are links to the verification stats for mean sea level pressure for 20 degrees North to 80 degrees North


As usual ECM is slightly ahead of UKMO which is ahead of GFS (by the way PRHW14 is the parallel GFS run)


0z Run http://www.emc.ncep.noaa.gov/gmb/STATS_vsdb/allmodel/daily/cor/cor_day5_PMSL_MSL_G2NHX.png


12z Run http://www.emc.ncep.noaa.gov/gmb/STATS_vsdb/12Z/allmodel/daily/cor/cor_day5_PMSL_MSL_G2NHX.png


Here is a comparison of the verification stats for all 4 GFS daily runs. Stats are almost identical except for the 06z which is significantly worse. So definitely something up with the 6z run.


http://www.emc.ncep.noaa.gov/gmb/STATS_vsdb/gfs4cyc/allmodel/daily/cor/cor_day5_PMSL_MSL_G2NHX.png


I know some have been saying that the GFS parallel run seems a bit less reliable compared to the current operational GFS. Well in fact the verification stats (for 2014 as a whole) show that the parallel run is on average performing slightly better than the current operational run


The parallel run is the red line and verifies at 0.837 compared to the operational at 0.829


http://www.emc.ncep.noaa.gov/gmb/wd20rt/vsdb/prhw14/allmodel/daily/cor/cor_day5_PMSL_MSL_G2NHX.png

Russwirral
24 November 2014 22:34:20


 


Ah yes that old classic Myth!! Always made me chuckle. 


Funnily enough there's never any evidence to support that theory. 


Originally Posted by: White Meadows 


 


I remember a few years back there was a wobble in the charts as we zero'd in on delivery of colder weather.  There was shock on the boards, and I think it was Brian who informed us that there was a data issue on one of the runs which led to some erroneous patterns.  and sure enough 6 hrs later we were back onto colder weather.


 


Proper sent the forums into suicide mode very briefly.


Russwirral
24 November 2014 22:43:34

Netweather GFS Image;


Hmmm... that LP darting over us, need to keep an eye on that.  With an increase in preference for Scandi blocking i wouldnt be surprised if that all of a sudden wants to take a trip to Italy .   That would set things up quite nicely.... will look forward to having a look at the ensembles in an hour to see if any other perburbations arrive at this scenario.


 


could be wrong, but we saw this kind of scenario develop quite a lot the other year.


 


 


 


some faraway beach
24 November 2014 22:49:03
Many thanks for posting those stats, Global Warming. They seem to offer an obvious answer to anyone still uneasy about trusting the 06z/18z GFS runs as much as the 00z/12z ones - just ignore all four of them.


2 miles west of Taunton, 32 m asl, where "milder air moving in from the west" becomes SNOWMAGEDDON.
Well, two or three times a decade it does, anyway.
Ally Pally Snowman
24 November 2014 23:14:42

I really rate the new GFS


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?&ech=384&mode=1&runpara=1


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Stormchaser
24 November 2014 23:19:54

The 18z GFS and GFSP runs refuse to back down with regards to the trough sliding SE 


At least the 18z GFSP op manages to back the pattern a bit further west in the 4-8 day timeframe compared to the 12z GFSP op run, which very nearly brings in an easterly in the theme of UKMO and ECM.


 


The 18z GFSP op run then goes a bit crazy, as the vortex lobe over Greenland develops some intense storm systems, only for a split to suddenly occur as a ridge in the western North Atlantic links with the Arctic High, this sending the majority of the deep troughing on a fast train to Europe:


  


A truly extreme version of events, so nothing but a bit of fun really - but that's a lot more than can be said for the GFS 18z op run.


Oh wait - forgot to post the -20*C uppers about to reach the SE at the end of the 18z GFSP op run:



Jaw to the floor!


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Keep Calm and Forecast On
Deep Powder
24 November 2014 23:20:53


 


I reckon it is December 2012 you are thinking of there WM. I could be wrong, but I have no clear recollection of the ECM, or any of the other models, showing an easterly of any sorts at any stage during last December. My recollection of last year is that in the early part of December, the models initially showed high pressure controlling the weather for much of the month although never really that cold, before the breakdown to atlantic dominance that went on to last until after mid-Feb was picked up.


December 2012 did have quite a few cold days here in the first half of that month, and during that time I do remember some pretty interesting model runs on a few occasions. The second half of that December was milder and wetter but that wasn't to set the tone for the rest of the winter; IIRC the model runs in the first few days of 2013 clearly indicated that a change in pattern was afoot.


Originally Posted by: David M Porter 


I agree re. December 2012. I remember the charts on some models looked great and IMBY we had a couple of days of very cold temps and all day frost. I remember thinking 'here we go' a nice wintry spell is on the way. IIRC we had a good Greenland/Iceland high for quite a bit of the month but it did not bring the cold many desire, I think it was not strong enough.....


I also remember many being very critical of the ECM 32 dayer around this time, as some had hinted 2 weeks prior, that it showed a Greenland high for December. Many were disappointed that the 'promised' weather did not materialise.


Retron (Darren) quite rightly pointed out that the ECM 32 dayer only showed pressure anomalies in certain areas and had, 2 weeks prior, shown a slight positive anomaly around Greenland. Some had misinterpreted this as a greenland high and cold weather. What came to pass was very close to what the ECM 32 dayer had infact shown, a slight positive anomaly around greenland, but not cold weather for us.. Shame Retron has gone, his knowledge was superb.....


 


Anyway, models seem to be hinting at a change, possibly colder, possibly not, who knows after more than 5 days out😀


 


Near Leatherhead 100masl (currently living in China since September 2019)
Loving the weather whatever it brings, snow, rain, wind, sun, heat, all great!
Stormchaser
24 November 2014 23:26:29

Here it is again in TWO format:


No chart available for the selected hour. Many charts start at 3 hours ahead, so if you have 0 hours selected try stepping forward or selecting a later hour.


That's the single coldest model output chart I've ever seen! Even in the archives there's nothing I've come across with so much cold air of such intensity!


This is the pinnacle of dream charts. Almost guaranteed to remain in our dreams. Almost 


If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

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2023's Homeland Extremes:
T-Max: 30.2°C 9th Sep (...!) | T-Min: -7.1°C 22nd & 23rd Jan | Wettest Day: 25.9mm 2nd Nov | Ice Days: 1 (2nd Dec -1.3°C in freezing fog)
Keep Calm and Forecast On
Russwirral
24 November 2014 23:26:41


Oh wait - forgot to post the -20*C uppers about to reach the SE at the end of the 18z GFSP op run:



Jaw to the floor!


Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 


 


Cant wait to see the ensembles.  Defo some momentum tonight towards colder Scandi blocking situation.  Inline with LRF for annomalies in CFS etc.


 


EDIT= quite odd that this arrives on the day Gavin posted an almost identical diagram in his video for temperature annomalies by Cohen (correct name)? its pretty much identical.


 


Gooner
24 November 2014 23:46:16


I really rate the new GFS


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?&ech=384&mode=1&runpara=1


Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfsp/runs/2014112418/gfsnh-0-348.png?18


Yes indeed


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


nsrobins
24 November 2014 23:56:13


Just when you think the trend towards a seasonal outlook was losing it's grip after a very brief flirtation, the GFSP throws up an epic far FI that would satisfy even the most fanatic coldie. Bank it, save it, forget it - it'll be gone by the morning

Yes I think we should now announce that the silly season is officially here.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
White Meadows
25 November 2014 07:09:45

Decisive changes this morning.
After that low heads South East into Europe this weekend, things get colder but then what happens next is giving the models a headache.

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/MT8_London_ens.png

Solar Cycles
25 November 2014 08:39:29


 


Is there factual evidence available for this? Every winter we get told certain runs favour certain outcomes and I've read from forecasters before that that's nonsense. Not discounting it myself as I'm not sure, but where is the proof of this, and more importantly, if it is accurate - why?


Originally Posted by: Matty H 

Unfortunately not as we've all seen the statistics for each model but like all statistics  they only tell half as story, it's the same as the pub run aptly named IMO and more so last night.

Solar Cycles
25 November 2014 08:43:48

Well quite a turnaround from last week when many were suggesting an onslaught from the Atlantic was inevitable, a much drier and progressively colder picture is looking likely after the  next day or so. Further out into FI and as usual when we have a block to our East the models and more so the GFS see the Atlantic making inroads once again, it may well do but as we've seen over the last few weeks how many times have they shown this?


 

GIBBY
25 November 2014 08:49:11

HERE IS MY LATEST ANALYSIS FROM THE OUTPUTS OF THE WEATHER COMPUTER PREDICTION MODELS FOR TWO WEEKS FROM 8AM TODAY TUESDAY NOVEMBER 25TH 2014.


NEXT UPDATE WEDNESDAY NOVEMBER 26TH 08:00


THE CURRENT GENERAL SITUATION A wave depression is forming over the English Channel, moving NNE through the next 24 hours towards the North Sea later tomorrow.


MODELS-2 WEEK HEADLINE Generally changeable conditions look likely across the UK though the emhasis should be on more dry weather than wet with temperatures close to average though below where any mist, fog or frost patches develop later.


THE JET STREAM ENSEMBLE FORECAST The GFS Jet Stream Ensemble forecast shows the flow remaining weak around the UK and Europe for the remainder of the week. The trend thereafter remains for it to increase and push further East over the Atlantic, UK and Northern Europe in the second half of the period.


GFS OPERATIONAL The GFS operational this morning shows disrupting Low pressure to the West of the UK by the weekend following the slack and Low pressure across the UK over the next few days. This disrupting Low pressure then is split into a cut off Low over Iberia while another portion moves harmlessly away to the North allowing a ridge of High pressure to reform over the UK from the European High pressure block at the weekend. Later in the period High pressure remains the driving force of the weather over the UK gradually forming a centre either over or close to the UK with some cold and frosty conditions likely to develop for many as a result with patchy fog problems too.


THE GFS PARALLEL RUN The GFS Parallel run is in unison with the operational in the first half of the period before High pressure develops more towards the SW allowing the Jet flow to override and collapse the European High pressure. This then makes for a milder WSW flow across Northern areas extending South at times with some rain at times, more especially across the North. Later in the run a deep Low diving SE over the North Sea introduces a plunge of cold Polar air across the UK with keen North winds and showers or longer spells of rain, sleet and snow in below average temperatures to end the period.


THE GFS CONTROL The GFS control run this morning closer resembles the Parallel run in sequence with a slow transition towards the High to the East giving way to more control towards High pressure close to Southern England. This of course as indicated before allows the Jet flow to cross East into Europe at higher latitudes and allows temperatures to rise on a WSW flow across the UK with rain at times in the north. It is supportive thugh of some form off attack from the North, albeit temporary on this run late in the period with some rain and snow in placesfor a time.


THE GEFS ENSEMBLES The GEFS Ensembles this morning show the most favoured point likely to be held in two weeks from now is the UK to be locked in a trough from Low pressure close to or over the North of the UK with the Jet flow quite well South with unsettled and at times chilly weather with rain at times and snow over Northern hills, though this brought about on a mostly Westerly flow.


UKMO UKMO today shows a strong ridge of High pressure across Eastern Europe, all the way West through the British Isles and with a new centre well out in mid Atlantic at Day 6. Low pressure lies across Spain and over a point North of Iceland. The resultant quiet weather with West winds in the far North and East ones in the far South will leave most of the UK benign with some bright spells along with mist, fog and frost patches developing again with time.


THE FAX CHARTS The Fax Charts show a developing Low pressure over the English Channel over the next 24 hours with a complex array of troughs across the South and East gradually transferring NE in the wake of a strengthening SE flow later in the week as a deep Low complex develops near Spain. pressure is then shown to rise across the UK as a ridge develops across the UK from Europe.


GEM GEM this morning also shows the theme of disrupting Low pressure slipping down over our western Sea areas and arriving over Spain. This sets up an Easterly flow over the South of Britain while a ridge from Europe and later the Atlantic disects te UK with a slacker west flow over the far north. Towards the end of the run pressure falls from both the SE and NW with a complex Low pressure area bringing rain and rather chilly conditions to many before the end of the period in slack cyclonic winds then.


NAVGEM NAVGEM shows a much more marked push of Atlantic weather East across Northern Europe next week as the High over Eastern Europe collapses and allows a displaced Azores High to lie just to the SW of the UK then to become the dominant player in UK conditions with strong Westerly winds with rain at times across the North while the South sees some more lengthy drier periods between very occasional and lighter rain events in average temperatures for all.


ECM ECM this morning also shows a cut off Low feature over Spain at the weekend while the UK lies in centre ground to a ridge from an European High to another one over the Atlantic. On this run there is strong support for the Atlantic High to eventually form a UK based feature with all the attendant Winter issues of fog and frost, widespread, persistent and dense likely to develop across Britain as a result later in the period. This would make conditions very cold locally. Before this develops though a band of cloud and rain from the North is shown to move down over the North and East of the UK towards the middle of next week.


THE ECM ENSEMBLES The Ensemble run shows strong support for much of the UK to be under quiet and anticyclonic conditions in 10 days time with much of the UK likely to have surface air pressure values in excess of 1020mbs. The centre of High pressure will be of paramount of importance as to what conditions will be experienced in any one place at the surface in terms of frost and fog amounts.


NOTABLE TREND CHANGES FROM PREVIOUS RUNS There is still an element of indecision between the models of developments beyond this weekend though the overall general trend is for High pressure is one shape or form to be the overriding factor close to the UK later in the period.


MY THOUGHTS The pattern this morning remains a very complex one with many factors coming into play over and around the UK which could all shape our weather very differently over the period if one factor overpowered another. As it is the models do vary considerably in detail once we leave this weekend which looks like being benign under a ridge from the East. The general belief next week is that there will be a gentle shift towards a new High from the Atlantic playing a more dominat role in the UK weather over the remainder of the period. The positioning of this will be instrumental in the weather type at the surface with differences in opinion on this shown across the models this morning. If the High makes landfall over Britain which is shown by a number of runs then the net result will be quiet and fine weather for the UK but it could well become cold and foggy with frost widespread. This could be reluctant to shift through the day in the light winds. If, however the High is held to the South as is shown by some other output then the Jet flow will overide the system and flatten the pattern to make for mild Atlantic winds to affect the UK with rain at times chiefly in the North. There is also some opinion that the High could move East of the UK and allow Low pressure to slip South over or to the East of the UK later bringing a plunge of colder polar air down from the North for a time late in the period. It really is a case of you pays your money and takes your choice on which theory if any proves correct come the time. It does look increasingly unlikely now that unless the current High pressure over Eastern Europe can gain assistance from a new High pressure centre elsewhere the block over Eastern Europe will probably not deliver anything cold to the UK this time but with plenty of High pressure floating around at our latitude over the next few weeks there is always a chance that these could be drawn to a position more favourable for bringing cold weather to the UK sooner or later albeit home grown anticyclonic cold or from a cold source either from the North or East. As I hinted at yesterday the pattern is far from set at the moment and there remains plenty of interest hemispherically to induce or maintain interest for coldies with I anticipate a cold period likely at some point over the next three to four weeks looking quite likely for the UK perhaps with some snow though that word 'patience' is going to have to take frontstage.


Martin G
Kilmersdon Radstock Bath Somerset



Look up my New Facebook Weather Page  for all the latest up to the minute weather stories as they happen
idj20
25 November 2014 08:59:57

Cheers Gibby. At least we haven't got to be dealing with rough 'n' wild Atlantic-based stuff for quite a while, so it seems. Quite a different look and feel on this time last year, I can live with that.


Folkestone Harbour. 
roger63
25 November 2014 09:04:08

This mornings GEFS ENS shows 40.60 split Atlantic : Anticyclonic but then trend is towards Atlantic. with ratio 50:50 at 240h and 80.20 at 360h.However at least there is HP in the frame albeit not in the right place so prone to being squeezed away by the Atlantic.

Gorgo
25 November 2014 09:33:00
I don't want to be controversial, I think I will anyway, but aren´t we all going a bit crazy at this time of the year? It´s the same every year. Most of us are craving for cold, snow, extreme north-american like weather... and we end up blaming the Atlantic, the big evil originator of all our meteorological frustations. Let's face it guys, Britain is an island in the middle of the Atlantic and we get what we are...As much as I love cold and snow, in Britain they are exceptional phenomena, and they will always be... Having said that, fingers crossed for a real cold and snowy winter lol 😉
Jayni C
25 November 2014 10:02:29

I don't want to be controversial, I think I will anyway, but aren´t we all going a bit crazy at this time of the year? It´s the same every year. Most of us are craving for cold, snow, extreme north-american like weather... and we end up blaming the Atlantic, the big evil originator of all our meteorological frustations. Let's face it guys, Britain is an island in the middle of the Atlantic and we get what we are...As much as I love cold and snow, in Britain they are exceptional phenomena, and they will always be... Having said that, fingers crossed for a real cold and snowy winter lol ;-)

Originally Posted by: Gorgo 


agree with most of this . . . . except, we can hardly be described as an Island in the middle of the Atlantic !

nsrobins
25 November 2014 10:06:26

I don't want to be controversial, I think I will anyway

Originally Posted by: Gorgo 


You're going to fit in just nicely


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Brian Gaze
25 November 2014 10:08:01


This mornings GEFS ENS shows 40.60 split Atlantic : Anticyclonic but then trend is towards Atlantic. with ratio 50:50 at 240h and 80.20 at 360h.However at least there is HP in the frame albeit not in the right place so prone to being squeezed away by the Atlantic.


Originally Posted by: roger63 


It still feels like nowt nor summat. A bit like summer which although the stats tell us was warm and pleasant didn't bring the heat of 2013. Generally the solution is somewhere between what the GFS and ECM op runs so I'd not be surprised to see a stalemate continue in the next couple of weeks.


 


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
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David M Porter
25 November 2014 10:09:53


 


agree with most of this . . . . except, we can hardly be described as an Island in the middle of the Atlantic !


Originally Posted by: Jayni C 


More like an island at the right-hand side of the atlantic.


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
Jonesy
25 November 2014 10:14:30

I don't want to be controversial, I think I will anyway, but aren´t we all going a bit crazy at this time of the year? It´s the same every year. Most of us are craving for cold, snow, extreme north-american like weather... and we end up blaming the Atlantic, the big evil originator of all our meteorological frustations. Let's face it guys, Britain is an island in the middle of the Atlantic and we get what we are...As much as I love cold and snow, in Britain they are exceptional phenomena, and they will always be... Having said that, fingers crossed for a real cold and snowy winter lol ;-)

Originally Posted by: Gorgo 


Welcome to TWO


We are not in the middle of the Atlantic  I do most of my swimming in the Thames Estuary/North Sea 


Anyway don't want to take this thread any further off topic as it's suppose to be for the Model Output discussion only and links/references to the outputs etc..... So I shall see you in the Winter Discussion thread and we can keep our fingers crossed together 


Medway Towns (Kent)
The Weather will do what it wants, when it wants, no matter what data is thrown at it !
kmoorman
25 November 2014 10:14:31


 


More like an island at the right-hand side of the atlantic.


Originally Posted by: David M Porter 


Which is the right side to be if you want warm , moist winds and clement weather.


Home: Durrington, Worthing, West Sussex. (16 ASL)
Work: Canary Wharf, London
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