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Matty H
02 December 2014 13:20:17


 


 


Im not sure what GFS charts you are refering to, but on the last couple of runs have shown consistent variations of a deep Low pressure system carrying in alot of cold air (cold enough for frosts and snow for the north)


 


I wouldnt rule out transient snow in fronts for the southern counties if the fronts arrive after dark.


 


just looking at Brians post abut Wind speaks in excess of 80mph - though not out of the ordinary is far from being uneventful.


 


I think there is a stirring in the Metoffice too about this scenario.  I saw the weather view last night with John hammond, he finished off by some small ramping talk about a change to more wintry weather to watch out for next week... which is quite odd for the beeb to ramp up over a week in advance.


 


 


Originally Posted by: Russwirral 


A tad misleading. There are no wind speeds over 80mph save for a tiny area of the NW isles. The rest is pretty standard to say the least. I'd also be absolutely amazed to see any snow, transient or otherwise, to any low lying areas of Southern England in the next couple of weeks. 


Russwirral
02 December 2014 13:28:35


 


A tad misleading. There are no wind speeds over 80mph save for a tiny area of the NW isles. The rest is pretty standard to say the least. I'd also be absolutely amazed to see any snow, transient or otherwise, to any low lying areas of Southern England in the next couple of weeks. 


Originally Posted by: Matty H 


 


i admit - im not saying we're heading into a sustained cold period with loads of snow... no.  But you have to acknowledge the increase in Pertubations going for clusters around -5*c @ 850hPa - adding into the Snow row that Brian has added and I think theres a very good chance of being amazed.  It is looking a tad dry though.


 


To say its all uneventful and not wintry is whats misleading.   Potential for some interesting weather across the uk over the next week.  We shouldnt discount it becuase it doesnt happen in our back garden.


 


 


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Gooner
02 December 2014 13:45:32


Remarkable consistency on GFS from run to run. Even the 06z holds firm with a transient north westerly storm of sorts for the north early next week before flattening out for the mild & westerly train til the end of the run.

Any pattern change (if there is one) won't be picked up on for a while yet, leaving a pretty predictable & boring month for coldies.


Originally Posted by: White Meadows 


 


Really???


 


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn22817.gif


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn25217.gif


 


Followed by 2 or 3 milder days


Then


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn34817.gif


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn37217.gif


 


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Matty H
02 December 2014 14:12:56


 


 


i admit - im not saying we're heading into a sustained cold period with loads of snow... no.  But you have to acknowledge the increase in Pertubations going for clusters around -5*c @ 850hPa - adding into the Snow row that Brian has added and I think theres a very good chance of being amazed.  It is looking a tad dry though.


 


To say its all uneventful and not wintry is whats misleading.   Potential for some interesting weather across the uk over the next week.  We shouldnt discount it becuase it doesnt happen in our back garden.


 


 


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Originally Posted by: Russwirral 


Its certainly seasonal, although I don't find it that interesting at all. It's not what I would call noteworthy. All very typical of the time of year, not as dull as an endless train of Atlantic systems I'll give you that. 


idj20
02 December 2014 14:15:13

On a selfish IMBY note, hopefully the changeable conditions and the brisk westerly wind may even do me a favour by shifting this dead "No Man's Land" col-like stalemate situation I'm currently experiencing right now at this end.


Folkestone Harbour. 
Saint Snow
02 December 2014 16:02:00


On a selfish IMBY note, hopefully the changeable conditions and the brisk westerly wind may even do me a favour by shifting this dead "No Man's Land" col-like stalemate situation I'm currently experiencing right now at this end.


Originally Posted by: idj20 


 


You'll be telling us you want the wind to die down next



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idj20
02 December 2014 16:17:34


You'll be telling us you want the wind to die down next


Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 



 It's those southerly storm-force gales ahead of a rapidly developing mid-Atlantic "bomb" depression that I hate, like what we had before last Christmas - and several times in the rest of that winter. This appears to be vanilla stuff bringing fresh/strong winds with local gales in from the south west or west, which I can tolerate.

Unless the Atlantic/models has other ideas!


Folkestone Harbour. 
Stormchaser
02 December 2014 16:59:14


Ouch. A strong blow on this run and with uppers as low as -8*C for Scotland and -6*C for England and Wales. Enough for a bit of overnight snow perhaps, most likely as showers in the polar maritime air mass. It could lead to intermittent blizzard conditions in places.


 



Despite the next trough in line storming straight NE with a flat jet (shame that - it takes down the developing -ve AO signal), the trough after that behaves much like the one in 8 days time, digging south and bringing another cold NW'rly flow to the UK, though veering more westerly at times and not of the magnitude of the event a week on Wednesday. Both of these troughs dig south at the same time as deep troughs form on the opposite side of the pole - a curious repeating pattern there, but with a bit of a shift west the second time around.


This is consistent with most recent GFS and GFSP runs, and again shows the gradual increase in heights over Scandinavia, even getting to Svalbard by the end of this run. This sort of thing is needed to bring a new round of attacks on the strat. vortex and steer us toward a significant warming event later in the month, but it does seem to rely on the MJO progressing to the East Pacific (phase 8 or 1), which GFS is keen on but ECM and the Met Office are not.


That is of some concern if you're hoping for a significant cold spell prior to 2015, as it's all very well having beat up strat. and trop. vortexes, but we need a trigger to be able to land the final blow. If the MJO stays in the West Pacific, we're missing the most likely form of trigger.


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JACKO4EVER
02 December 2014 17:07:57
It's all fairly as to be expected for early December, the odd cooler interlude and then an Atlantic blast, some snow on Northern hills and some useable weather in the South at times. Pretty decent output IMO- I can live with that! 🙂
squish
02 December 2014 17:10:06
Very stormy GEM

http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gem/runs/2014120212/gemnh-0-168.png 

Gradually winds down in-situ through to +240 and none too warm either....
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Stormchaser
02 December 2014 17:22:43

 


Modele UKMO - Carte prévisions


UKMO's got the Azores High a little further west than GFS which implies that the storm would go on to track a little further south.


Comparing it to the past two ECM op runs, it seems to lie somewhere between them except for a slightly reduced Azores High influence on day 5.


Overall, GFS, ECM and UKMO aren't all that far apart with the storm track leading up to the UK. The real divergence begins after that time, as GFS/GFSP drive most of the energy NE while ECM has been holding more back across the UK and head into Europe.


 


Having said that, the GFS and GFSP 12z op runs have allowed more energy to venture down to Europe, which places them lot closer to the ECM 00z op run, in fact GFSP seems to be trying to take things even further:


  


The low heights split quite nicely there. Had the Atlantic trough behaved more like the ECM 00z showed, an easterly would have turned up soon afterward, and a cold one too.


It's an example of how a Mediterranean trough can help us out even when the polar profile is lacking the high latitude blocking we usually look for.


Worth keeping an eye on, behind the cold NW'rly (perhaps N'rly for a time going by GFSP) that precedes it. After all, there's nothing much in the reliable range to focus on aside from the chance of a bit of high altitude snowfall at times.


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Stormchaser
02 December 2014 17:30:57

It's all fairly as to be expected for early December, the odd cooler interlude and then an Atlantic blast, some snow on Northern hills and some useable weather in the South at times. Pretty decent output IMO- I can live with that! :-)

Originally Posted by: JACKO4EVER 


 


I have to say, 'cooler' hardly does the GFS and GFSP day 8-10 output justice:



Okay I'll admit, that's the coldest version of event so far, but it represents today's trend toward a more amplified solution.


If ECM doesn't follow that trend that I'll concede that 'cooler' is not a bad description in terms of ambient conditions, though the wind will make it feel otherwise.


 


Just seen the GEM 12z op run and I don't like it; shortwave development south of Greenland flattens the flow and washes out the half-decent cold.


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Brian Gaze
02 December 2014 17:42:43

The GFS parallel will be unavailable due to planned supercomputer maintenance from the 12z cycle on December 3, 2014 through the 06z cycle on December 8, 2014


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Solar Cycles
02 December 2014 17:55:06


 


 


I have to say, 'cooler' hardly does the GFS and GFSP day 8-10 output justice:



Okay I'll admit, that's the coldest version of event so far, but it represents today's trend toward a more amplified solution.


If ECM doesn't follow that trend that I'll concede that 'cooler' is not a bad description in terms of ambient conditions, though the wind will make it feel otherwise.


 


Just seen the GEM 12z op run and I don't like it; shortwave development south of Greenland flattens the flow and washes out the half-decent cold.


Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 

This is what I was alluding to earlier, a short sharp blast of arctic air for many in NW areas and maybe further South in elevated areas.

squish
02 December 2014 18:43:28
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Recm1681.gif 

Very similar to GEM. Nasty storm brewing....
D.E.W on Dartmoor. 300m asl
Matty H
02 December 2014 18:46:29

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Recm1681.gif

Very similar to GEM. Nasty storm brewing....

Originally Posted by: squish 


Looks further south?


David M Porter
02 December 2014 19:03:05

ECM 12z op run looks as though it could deliver quite a lot of the white stuff to high ground up here! Possibly lower ground as well if cold enough.


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llamedos
02 December 2014 19:17:29


ECM 12z op run looks as though it could deliver a quire lot of the white stuff to high ground up here! Possibly lower ground as well if cold enough.


Originally Posted by: David M Porter 

Not that thick then


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David M Porter
02 December 2014 19:50:42


Not that thick then


Originally Posted by: llamedos 


Ooops! Thanks for pointing that out, John. Have edited my post above so it reads as intended.


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Stormchaser
02 December 2014 20:26:29

ECM's in the flat-jet camp as far as the Atlantic goes, so Jacko's use of the word 'cooler' rather than colder might well be justified after all, at least for the coming 10 days or so.


There could be a silver lining though, as the storm of 9th/10th December still digs far enough south to allow the that flat jet to aim its sights at the eastern Mediterranean (the band of green on the below chart provides a rough estimation of the jet path):



This is where I was harsh on the GEM run earlier - it doesn't deliver from the northwest but it does get low heights to the eastern Med. very effectively indeed. ECM lifts a lot more of the low heights out northward from the storm of the 9th/10th, taking until day 10 to produce the right setup for a more significant push SE from the UK.


I'm not convinced that we would see the higher heights extending NW from Scandinavia for quite a while after that ECM day 10 chart though. Too much progression of the low heights from the Atlantic to Siberia.


Looking at JMA's day 8 chart, the trough behaves similar to the GFS 12z op run, but the strong mid-Atlantic ridge is absent. Probably headed somewhere between the ECM and GFS output which would be often wet and windy and without the height rises to the east. I imagine that would have some members turning back the clocks by 12 months 


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JACKO4EVER
02 December 2014 20:44:03


ECM's in the flat-jet camp as far as the Atlantic goes, so Jacko's use of the word 'cooler' rather than colder might well be justified after all, at least for the coming 10 days or so.


There could be a silver lining though, as the storm of 9th/10th December still digs far enough south to allow the that flat jet to aim its sights at the eastern Mediterranean (the band of green on the below chart provides a rough estimation of the jet path):



This is where I was harsh on the GEM run earlier - it doesn't deliver from the northwest but it does get low heights to the eastern Med. very effectively indeed. ECM lifts a lot more of the low heights out northward from the storm of the 9th/10th, taking until day 10 to produce the right setup for a more significant push SE from the UK.


I'm not convinced that we would see the higher heights extending NW from Scandinavia for quite a while after that ECM day 10 chart though. Too much progression of the low heights from the Atlantic to Siberia.


Looking at JMA's day 8 chart, the trough behaves similar to the GFS 12z op run, but the strong mid-Atlantic ridge is absent. Probably headed somewhere between the ECM and GFS output which would be often wet and windy and without the height rises to the east. I imagine that would have some members turning back the clocks by 12 months 


Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 


great analysis again SC and all to play for with the trough position at about a week out. Not too sure if the latest output places this a little too further South though without any strong mid Atlantic ridge behind it may all be in vain. It wouldn't surprise me at all if December sadly turns out a little wetter than some envisage.

Stormchaser
02 December 2014 20:49:45


Here's the all-important MJO outlook from the models.


To summarise:


The green GEFS outlook is what we want to see for developing a pattern which can attack the strat. vortex.


The orange JMAN (to do with the JMA) outlook seems to be in line with GEFS at the end of it's run, which is encouraging.


The blue UKME (UKMO related) outlook is striking in how it really amplifies the MJO, which would bring a stronger response in the pattern outside of the tropics. I'm not sure if that increases the liklihood of it pushing on all the way to phases 8 and 1 though (E. Pacific).


The yellow ECMF outlook is the much-feared scenario in which the MJO 'recycles' in the W. Pacific, much like it did a year back.


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Medlock Vale Weather
02 December 2014 22:40:43

Snow piling up for some northern and western areas, over a foot across Highland Scotland.


http://modeles2.meteociel.fr/modeles_gfs/runs/2014120218/180-780PUK.GIF?02-18


 


 


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Russwirral
02 December 2014 22:47:51
Hmmm, Focus really needs to be on that LP Sunday into Monday. Seems to back off the gas on the current run just as it hits the UK.

Also - the FI seems to be look a bit odd to look at on this run... the HP to the south seems to flatten out and not look right. The overall pattern at the end looks on paper loaded with potential from the north... but the Temps look really mild. Says to me the models are having a hard time nailing some of the details and probably a hint of a change to pattern as we head into mid December. As ever, the current run is ony 4 mins old and we eagerly wait on the next run.


Russwirral
02 December 2014 22:50:18


Snow piling up for some northern and western areas, over a foot across Highland Scotland.


http://modeles2.meteociel.fr/modeles_gfs/runs/2014120218/180-780PUK.GIF?02-18


 


 


Originally Posted by: Medlock Vale Weather 


 


Aye been years since we got a northerly that delivered to the northwest.  


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