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LA2B MeridFlowEuro09
Saturday, November 30, 2013 7:24:41 PM

Amazed, Truthful or Impressed at ECMWF 12z run.


What will it do Tomorrow, and will the GFS and UKMO change themselves.


. A Three day Direct Arctic flow for North and NW Europe is still part of ECMWF and it needs GFS a nd UKMO to back it up.


GFS and UKMO are having difficulty dealing with location and path of Next weeks suggested Thursday 5th to Saturday 7th Arctic Northerly plunge.



Climate is warming up, Scotland and N Ireland and North England still often gets some Winter frost, ice and snow, November to March, but the SE and South UK including S Central England and Wales, together with the West and North through the year, they sometimes get more rain than London and S SE England, where some longer dry fine spells without much heavy rain is seen every year.

The North Atlantic Sea often gets some much Colder Wintry conditions from November to March Months, and Mild SW and South winds tend to be more frequent over the East and SE of North Atlantic Sea, as the Azores High tends to stay in charge. 

With this warmth and heat, the Central and South UK has become mostly free of snow and frost.
Gandalf The White
Saturday, November 30, 2013 7:29:27 PM

If that little low in Holland can get a bit closer to theUK we could have a major snow event on our hands.


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Recm1682.html 

Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 



I might be wrong but the 850 chart seems to suggest a trough associated with that low, which sits in the Channel at T+168. As Matty says, it might be gone in 12 hours - or it might be over East Anglia or Poland....

Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


squish
Saturday, November 30, 2013 8:00:19 PM
JMA is my pick of the bunch tonight for the longer term.....

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rjma1921.gif 
D.E.W on Dartmoor. 300m asl
Arcus
Saturday, November 30, 2013 9:32:54 PM
Whisper it quietly, but ECM looks kinda interesting in the longer term. In other news, as you were really.
Ben,
Nr. Easingwold, North Yorkshire
30m asl
moomin75
Saturday, November 30, 2013 9:50:11 PM

Whisper it quietly, but ECM looks kinda interesting in the longer term. In other news, as you were really.

Originally Posted by: Arcus 


Really? In what way? Just looks like a southerly based high pressure setting up and dragging up mild cloudy gunk...unless that's what you mean?


Witney, Oxfordshire
100m ASL
nsrobins
Saturday, November 30, 2013 9:56:38 PM

The rather more moderate ECM mean from the 12Z suggests that the ECM OP continues to be more bullish about the northerly than the majority of the ensemble members.
This in turn should moderate confidence in the OP solution.

Personally, I think the Japanese model is becoming a big player on the NWP stage


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
nsrobins
Saturday, November 30, 2013 10:09:18 PM

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the crucial point (Thurs/Fri) in the 18Z GFS has arrived and the whole pattern looks a bit more robust with less energy attempting to push through the ridge, with a consequently stouter looking northely setting up.
Forget the Jungle, go and have a look . . .


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Gandalf The White
Saturday, November 30, 2013 10:14:06 PM

Whisper it quietly, but ECM looks kinda interesting in the longer term. In other news, as you were really.

Originally Posted by: moomin75 


Really? In what way? Just looks like a southerly based high pressure setting up and dragging up mild cloudy gunk...unless that's what you mean?

Originally Posted by: Arcus 



I think perhaps it's the way the pattern is evolving, with the High drifting north slowly and a trough to the west/south-west and a more disrupted flow?
Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Chiltern Blizzard
Saturday, November 30, 2013 10:15:03 PM


Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the crucial point (Thurs/Fri) in the 18Z GFS has arrived and the whole pattern looks a bit more robust with less energy attempting to push through the ridge, with a consequently stouter looking northely setting up.
Forget the Jungle, go and have a look . . .


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


5 days out it's very different for southern England...  12z the 850 temp was +0, the 18z the 850 temp is sub -5.


 


Andrew


Rendlesham, Suffolk 20m asl
Karl Guille
Saturday, November 30, 2013 10:16:27 PM

GFS 18z has the Atlantic High much better aligned which enables cold to push further south and west at T132!


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2013113018/gfs-1-132.png?18


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2013113018/gfs-2-132.png?18


St. Sampson
Guernsey
Quantum
Saturday, November 30, 2013 10:19:24 PM

Don't really have much to add, because my oppinion hasn't changed, the catalyst that causes that spoiler low is a shot of cold air from the canadian high. However the ECM really has very little confidence in it (at least less than any other feature in the northern hemisphere). The low itself originates well south of the jet and is a surface feature (at least to start off with). I don't quite buy this massive development and sudden expansion of the PV into canada so I would still excpet a good 5 day cold spell. However, the northern blocking is going to weaken over the next 192 hours, so it doesnt look to hopeful that we will get any sort of reboot. The only possibility that remains to continue a cold spell beyond about 5 days, is ridging to scandanavia imo and that looks perhaps very tenous at this stage. I think the heights are simply too low. Looking further ahead it doesn't look good, models reform the PV and send us into full atlantic mode. 


I mean, past about the 11th of December it looks truly awful. Really very zonal indeed, with no cold weather to speak of 


Twitter: @QuantumOverlord (general), @MedicaneWatch (medicane/TC stuff)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
moomin75
Saturday, November 30, 2013 10:27:32 PM


Don't really have much to add, because my oppinion hasn't changed, the catalyst that causes that spoiler low is a shot of cold air from the canadian high. However the ECM really has very little confidence in it (at least less than any other feature in the northern hemisphere). The low itself originates well south of the jet and is a surface feature (at least to start off with). I don't quite buy this massive development and sudden expansion of the PV into canada so I would still excpet a good 5 day cold spell. However, the northern blocking is going to weaken over the next 192 hours, so it doesnt look to hopeful that we will get any sort of reboot. The only possibility that remains to continue a cold spell beyond about 5 days, is ridging to scandanavia imo and that looks perhaps very tenous at this stage. I think the heights are simply too low. Looking further ahead it doesn't look good, models reform the PV and send us into full atlantic mode. 


I mean, past about the 11th of December it looks truly awful. Really very zonal indeed, with no cold weather to speak of 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 

Good news. A nice mild December would be pleasant, as long as it's not too wet!...


Witney, Oxfordshire
100m ASL
Gooner
Saturday, November 30, 2013 10:37:28 PM

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn13817.png


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn1382.png


Friday looks a raw day


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Quantum
Saturday, November 30, 2013 10:39:54 PM


Given some snow cover, those maxima are very realistic, in western parts of scotland we could even see maxima lower than that. However without a decent snowcover, temps will be much higher (probably hovering around freezing). Without some decent frontal snow to get a widespread cover, I would say that those temps are perhaps exagerated. 


Twitter: @QuantumOverlord (general), @MedicaneWatch (medicane/TC stuff)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Gooner
Saturday, November 30, 2013 10:41:33 PM

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn2161.png


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn21617.png


Still cold for the UK


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Gooner
Saturday, November 30, 2013 10:45:33 PM

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn30017.png


some bitter nights across Europe


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


moomin75
Saturday, November 30, 2013 10:48:19 PM


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn30017.png


some bitter nights across Europe


Originally Posted by: Gooner 

Indeed....such a shame we're in the UK eh?


Well you will be...I'll be long gone by then, you'll be pleased to know!


The snow can come in the new year when I'm back home!


Witney, Oxfordshire
100m ASL
Gooner
Saturday, November 30, 2013 10:49:44 PM

http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2013113018/gfsnh-1-384.png?18


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2013113018/gfsnh-0-384.png?18


Ends with the UK under some cold air


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Karl Guille
Saturday, November 30, 2013 11:20:45 PM


Don't really have much to add, because my oppinion hasn't changed, the catalyst that causes that spoiler low is a shot of cold air from the canadian high. However the ECM really has very little confidence in it (at least less than any other feature in the northern hemisphere). The low itself originates well south of the jet and is a surface feature (at least to start off with). I don't quite buy this massive development and sudden expansion of the PV into canada so I would still excpet a good 5 day cold spell. However, the northern blocking is going to weaken over the next 192 hours, so it doesnt look to hopeful that we will get any sort of reboot. The only possibility that remains to continue a cold spell beyond about 5 days, is ridging to scandanavia imo and that looks perhaps very tenous at this stage. I think the heights are simply too low. Looking further ahead it doesn't look good, models reform the PV and send us into full atlantic mode. 


I mean, past about the 11th of December it looks truly awful. Really very zonal indeed, with no cold weather to speak of 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


GFS 18z has a go at about T192 and it subsequently tries to bring in an easterly thereafter but on this occasion it fails.  Certainly worth keeping an eye on the ensembles as certain previous perturbations have given this a go.


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2013113018/gfs-0-192.png?18


 


St. Sampson
Guernsey
Gandalf The White
Sunday, December 1, 2013 12:06:12 AM
The ECM 12z ensemble for London hasn't shifted much at all

http://www.weathercast.co.uk/services/ensemble-forecast.html 

Friday +2, Saturday +3, Sunday +1

The precipitation chart shows the Op delivering about 2 cm of snow on Saturday night.

A lot of options from Day 10 but a clear trend amongst the main grouping for a return to colder weather around Days 11-12.




Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Gooner
Sunday, December 1, 2013 12:07:02 AM



http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn30017.png


some bitter nights across Europe


Originally Posted by: moomin75 

Indeed....such a shame we're in the UK eh?


Well you will be...I'll be long gone by then, you'll be pleased to know!


The snow can come in the new year when I'm back home!


Originally Posted by: Gooner 


Witney never gets Snow, you know that


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Quantum
Sunday, December 1, 2013 12:13:36 AM

The ECM has -13C uppers in the north. The lake effect from this would be insane, you would expect widespread thunderstorms with other conditions being met. SSTs are in double figures in some parts of the UK. 


Twitter: @QuantumOverlord (general), @MedicaneWatch (medicane/TC stuff)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Gandalf The White
Sunday, December 1, 2013 12:34:00 AM
Worth noting that the cold spell next weekend was included in tonight's forecast on BBC Radio 4. "Arctic air moving south will have quite an impact - but may not be with us for long"

Unusual to get a specific mention so far out so they must be confident. The word 'snow' was mentioned...
Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Karl Guille
Sunday, December 1, 2013 12:42:22 AM

TBH the GFS 18z ensembles don't look great at all with very little support for the Op with regard to next weekend and only one run appearing to go for cold longer term IMBY!  Tomorrow's runs will be interesting!


St. Sampson
Guernsey
AIMSIR
Sunday, December 1, 2013 1:17:18 AM

Worth noting that the cold spell next weekend was included in tonight's forecast on BBC Radio 4. "Arctic air moving south will have quite an impact - but may not be with us for long" Unusual to get a specific mention so far out so they must be confident. The word 'snow' was mentioned...

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 

.


A good mention earlier from Gav about that stuff,still in the balance though.

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