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lezrob
Thursday, December 5, 2013 8:37:57 PM
Yes been following your JFF for a few years now.😁

http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf.php 192 Will the cold come our way?

Glimmer of hope on the ECM @ 168 Originally Posted by: Gooner 

[/quote">http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf/runs/2013120512/ECH1-96.GIF?05-0

Originally Posted by: lezrob 

[/quote]


Nice to see a fellow Banbury resident here

Originally Posted by: Zubzero 




Been lurking for 7 years... Still know nothing.. Weather fascinates..
Banbury Oxon
Gooner
Thursday, December 5, 2013 8:48:20 PM

Not many to offer yet ..................plenty of time though


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


AIMSIR
Thursday, December 5, 2013 9:38:00 PM

It could be interesting to see how this storm might have had an affect on the balance of pressures.


I wouldn't be surprised to see another, secondary low forming South west of Ireland.


Not quite on the models yet.
Or am I a bit mad?.

Zubzero
Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:23:04 PM

http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2013120518/gfsnh-0-162.png?18


GFS looking better to, I hope the trend continues, on the morning runs

Gooner
Thursday, December 5, 2013 11:39:03 PM

Temps from 18z GFS IMBY


6c 8c 9c 8c 7c 5c 6c 5c 5c 5c 9c 5c 5c 6c 5c 5c


A chilly feel if verified


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


The Beast from the East
Friday, December 6, 2013 12:05:19 AM

GFS rock solid in its outlook of complete boredom


ECM ens are cold. but no real sign of what we want to see


http://www.weathercast.co.uk/services/ensemble-forecast.html


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Retron
Friday, December 6, 2013 5:09:03 AM
Looking at the charts this morning it struck me - we *will* end up with a Scandinavian High, as hinted at so frequently by the ECM ensembles over a week ago:

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn961.png 

Snag is, we also have that Euro high and thus the Scandinavian High will just collapse into it (and thus keep the Euro high in place for longer).

A good example I think of the models picking up on a signal over a week out but not showing the whole picture.

FWIW neither the EPS control run nor the ECM-32 control run were very inspiring for coldies yesterday - both show a continuation of a Euro high dominating, a southerly or SSE'ly waft for the UK and occasional topups of the Euro high in the manner shown by the GFS chart linked above. It seems to be a very stable rut we're getting into!
Leysdown, north Kent
ballamar
Friday, December 6, 2013 5:47:10 AM
Scartlett high it is then
Retron
Friday, December 6, 2013 6:28:51 AM

FWIW the BBC have updated their 6-10 day forecasts. They use MOGREPS and it's the only way us mortals get to see MOGREPS beyond day 5. They used to display the maximum and minimum from the ensembles (so you'd have High: -1 to 6C, for example) but now they show the mean which is probably a more useful option.


NB, it's definitely *not* ECM driving the Beeb's forecasts as that currently has lower means down here than MOGREPS is showing.


Talking of which, here are the 12z ECM ensembles for Reading.


From that, we see that the ensemble mean (which is actually useful today given the relative lack of scatter) is lower than the ensemble mean from MOGREPS:









































DateEPS mean maxMOGREPS mean maxGFS mean max
11/12677
12/12778
13/12678
14/12568
15/12578

Leysdown, north Kent
Scandy 1050 MB
Friday, December 6, 2013 7:13:49 AM
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn961.png  Snag is, we also have that Euro high and thus the Scandinavian High will just collapse into it (and thus keep the Euro high in place for longer). A good example I think of the models picking up on a signal over a week out but not showing the whole picture. FWIW neither the EPS control run nor the ECM-32 control run were very inspiring for coldies yesterday - both show a continuation of a Euro high dominating, a southerly or SSE'ly waft for the UK and occasional topups of the Euro high in the manner shown by the GFS chart linked above. It seems to be a very stable rut we're getting into!


Agreed, no obvious way for this to end - I suspect it may collapse into atlantic driven gunk probably just in time for Christmas - would be so different if everything was shunted further north. 3/4 of December written off for coldies were this morning charts to verify. Hopefully we will get some continental feed at times which will help at least break up the cloud, speaking of late December I see the CFS daily was throwing up more eye candy for late december - seeems determined to give us an easterly, perhaps like the main models it's seeing what you describe above but forgetting about the effect of the Euro hiigh.  A boring spell of weather seems nailed on now.


 


Also should be said going on Gavins' excellent videos the JMA model has called this well so far - above average pressure for most of December centered near or slightly to the SE of the UK was what it was seeing for December. Let's hope its January forecast of increased heights to the north and lower heights to the south also verifies.

nsrobins
Friday, December 6, 2013 7:24:59 AM


FWIW the BBC have updated their 6-10 day forecasts. They use MOGREPS and it's the only way us mortals get to see MOGREPS beyond day 5. They used to display the maximum and minimum from the ensembles (so you'd have High: -1 to 6C, for example) but now they show the mean which is probably a more useful option.


NB, it's definitely *not* ECM driving the Beeb's forecasts as that currently has lower means down here than MOGREPS is showing.


Talking of which, here are the 12z ECM ensembles for Reading.


From that, we see that the ensemble mean (which is actually useful today given the relative lack of scatter) is lower than the ensemble mean from MOGREPS:









































DateEPS mean maxMOGREPS mean maxGFS mean max
11/12677
12/12778
13/12678
14/12568
15/12578

Originally Posted by: Retron 


Thanks for that Darren, but pardon me if I don't get too excited LOL.


I also note GEM has recovered from whatever it was taking yesterday and is now in line with the pack. Whatever people say about GFS, it has called the Sceuro for some time now when ECM spent several days insisting a Scandy would hold.
Look on the bright side - flood damage can be cleared up in quiet, benign weather


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Quantum
Friday, December 6, 2013 7:54:39 AM

http://cdn.nwstatic.co.uk/ecmimages/20131206/00/npsh500.240.png


That east russian high from the bearing is becoming a more prominant feature on this run. It isn't as conductive to a cold spell as a high actually in the bearing would be with WAA, but its not to be discounted. Eventually what could happen is the jet stream falls between the two anticyclones allowing a scandanavian HP to form. I haven't been excited about scandi HPs recently, because there is no support in the arctic for them. But the ECM has a solution that is now slightly more encouraging. But only very slightly, really I would be needing to see an upgrade to get even remotaely excited, and even then the cold spell would be past mid month. 


Twitter: @QuantumOverlord (general), @MedicaneWatch (medicane/TC stuff)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
NickR
  • NickR
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
Friday, December 6, 2013 8:03:42 AM


http://cdn.nwstatic.co.uk/ecmimages/20131206/00/npsh500.240.png


That east russian high from the bearing is becoming a more prominant feature on this run. It isn't as conductive to a cold spell as a high actually in the bearing would be with WAA, but its not to be discounted. Eventually what could happen is the jet stream falls between the two anticyclones allowing a scandanavian HP to form. I haven't been excited about scandi HPs recently, because there is no support in the arctic for them. But the ECM has a solution that is now slightly more encouraging. But only very slightly, really I would be needing to see an upgrade to get even remotaely excited, and even then the cold spell would be past mid month. 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


Quantum... is this now deliberate? 


Nick
Durham
[email protected]
The Beast from the East
Friday, December 6, 2013 8:21:17 AM

if anything the trend has got even worse. No sign of the northern jet abating so its probably game over until the new year.


 


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
nouska
Friday, December 6, 2013 8:29:15 AM


FWIW the BBC have updated their 6-10 day forecasts. They use MOGREPS and it's the only way us mortals get to see MOGREPS beyond day 5. They used to display the maximum and minimum from the ensembles (so you'd have High: -1 to 6C, for example) but now they show the mean which is probably a more useful option.


NB, it's definitely *not* ECM driving the Beeb's forecasts as that currently has lower means down here than MOGREPS is showing.


Talking of which, here are the 12z ECM ensembles for Reading.


From that, we see that the ensemble mean (which is actually useful today given the relative lack of scatter) is lower than the ensemble mean from MOGREPS:









































DateEPS mean maxMOGREPS mean maxGFS mean max
11/12677
12/12778
13/12678
14/12568
15/12578

Originally Posted by: Retron 


We've only got access to retrospective data but the EPS from noon on 3/12 show this well.


15 day MOGREPS for London.


http://tparc.mri-jma.go.jp/TIGGE/png/EPSgram/201312/UKMO_EPSgram_i2013120312_London.png?92631


ECM


http://tparc.mri-jma.go.jp/TIGGE/png/EPSgram/201312/ECMWF_EPSgram_i2013120312_London.png?92753


 

Quantum
Friday, December 6, 2013 8:32:11 AM



http://cdn.nwstatic.co.uk/ecmimages/20131206/00/npsh500.240.png


That east russian high from the bearing is becoming a more prominant feature on this run. It isn't as conductive to a cold spell as a high actually in the bearing would be with WAA, but its not to be discounted. Eventually what could happen is the jet stream falls between the two anticyclones allowing a scandanavian HP to form. I haven't been excited about scandi HPs recently, because there is no support in the arctic for them. But the ECM has a solution that is now slightly more encouraging. But only very slightly, really I would be needing to see an upgrade to get even remotaely excited, and even then the cold spell would be past mid month. 


Originally Posted by: NickR 


Quantum... is this now deliberate? 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


No, my spell checker refuses to correct it because its also a word. Appologies, *Bering


Twitter: @QuantumOverlord (general), @MedicaneWatch (medicane/TC stuff)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
JACKO4EVER
Friday, December 6, 2013 8:38:06 AM


if anything the trend has got even worse. No sign of the northern jet abating so its probably game over until the new year.


 


Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


Yes, we seem to be in a trend now- quite encouraging for milder weather fans though. All we need is for the HP to settle a little further South and some truly exceptional values could be attained from an Azores drift.

GIBBY
Friday, December 6, 2013 8:43:08 AM

Hi everyone. Here is this morning's look at the midnight outputs from GFS, UKMO, GEM, NAVGEM and ECM for today Friday December 6th 2013.


HEADLINE: No Cold weather in sight.


All models show a High pressure area drifting ESE towards Northern France. This provides a Westerly flow to bring milder Atlantic air across the UK on a Westerly breeze with a warm front on the leading edge carrying a band of rain and drizzle across the UK, preceded by a little snow on Northern high ground. This moist West flow then remains in place for the next two to three days with some troughs giving further mostly light rain at times in the NW while many other areas stay largely cloudy, relatively mild and dry.


GFS then shows High pressure inching a little further East next week allowing winds to back South or SE and this will have the effect of keeping Northern areas mild and cloudy with some drizzle over hills and coasts while Southern areas become somewhat less mild at times as drier continental air feeds across the channel at times, especially to the SE with some night fog and a touch of frost possible but some daytime sunshine too. However, despite this it can hardly be described as cold and milder air will filter back across at times, especially later in the run when the North and West turn rather windier with rain at times as troughs to the North and West move closer in on the mild SW wind.


UKMO today shows High pressure retreating somewhat further away East next week with Low pressure to the West strengthening the Southerly flow for a time with troughs just to the West possibly carrying some rain North up the Western side of the UK then NE across Scotland. Many Eastern parts should stay dry and possibly bright with the mildest conditions likely in the West and North.


GEM this morning keeps a very mild South or SW flow going across the UK for all of next week and weekend as High pressure stubbornly remains near Germany feeding mild or at times potentially very mild uppers up across the UK from the South. While not always very mild at the surface normal value temperatures would be achieved for all in the Southerly breeze and the potential remains for some very mild conditions to develop if sufficient breeze mixes out the air to the lee of high ground.


NAVGEM too keeps quite a brisk breeze from the South or SW and with this mixing of the air all areas should be on the mild side, very much so at times and though dry for the best part of next week fronts would move into Northern and Western areas by next weekend with rain at times.


ECM today also shows High pressure maintained to the East or ESE and therefore the pattern will be the same as the other outputs in that a period of benign and quiescent weather is maintained with a lot of cloud and mild conditions on a light Southerly drift. It may feel a little chillier in the East and South at times as a drift from the SE moves across the channel with some chillier nights giving rise to the possibility of fog patches but overall the pattern remains locked solid at Day 10 with any rain only likely in the far NW.


The GFS Ensembles today show rock solid support for two weeks of mild and generally settled conditions around High pressure slow moving over Europe. The only trend later maybe the ingress of Atlantic fronts moving deeper into the North and West of the UK late in the run on stronger SW winds but even then the South is shown to avoid much of any rain.


The Jet Stream remains locked in a pattern that will keep the UK relatively mild for the foreseeable future. It is shown to blow strongly in a NE orientation across the Atlantic and on towards Northern Scandinavia preventing any chance of significant ridging North of the European High and therefore not only keeping the UK mild but much of Western and Northern Europe too.


In Summary this morning this morning's synopses reminds me of the mild Winter's of early in the millenium years when much of the time we were bathed in similar synoptics to that of today. Now I'm not saying that this will be the course of this Winter but it certainly will be for the next couple of weeks. We have the Jet Stream to blame which is orientated totally wrongly for any chance of cold for the UK for some considerable time to come. It is also too strong at the moment in it's relentless progression NE over the Atlantic towards Iceland and Northern Scandinavia. This prevents any chance of any meaningful ridging North of the European High towards Northern Europe and therefore prevents anything moving West on it's Southern flank to usher in change. With this strong Jet to the NW it also maintains High pressure in situ so though not technically a blocked situation there is little room for change in synoptics quickly. So as it stands for the time being we have to try and predict local small scale changes day to day on whether cloud breaks enable temperatures to rise to very mild levels or whether days of anticyclonic gloom, mist or fog prevail over Eastern and Southern parts at times keeping things at least a little cooler. Rain will be a rare commodity overall restricted to the North and West on occasions.


Martin G
Kilmersdon Radstock Bath Somerset



Look up my New Facebook Weather Page  for all the latest up to the minute weather stories as they happen
Andy Woodcock
Friday, December 6, 2013 9:13:14 AM
Good summary Martin.

The setup remains me of December 1974 and December 1988 so the outlook is grim indeed and no that is not a 'Winter is over post'!

No easy way out of this, however, what may happen in time is that the jet will move south and bring wind and rain to the uk and we can get rid of the southern euro high pressure.

Such a re-set would then allow the opportunity for north westerly outbreaks and ultimately some northern blocking, but it's all a million miles away at the moment.

Andy
Andy Woodcock
Penrith
Cumbria

Altitude 535 feet

"Why are the British so worried about climate change? Any change to their climate can only be an improvement" John Daley 2001
JoeShmoe99
Friday, December 6, 2013 9:18:48 AM



if anything the trend has got even worse. No sign of the northern jet abating so its probably game over until the new year.


 


Originally Posted by: JACKO4EVER 


Yes, we seem to be in a trend now- quite encouraging for milder weather fans though. All we need is for the HP to settle a little further South and some truly exceptional values could be attained from an Azores drift.


Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


Great news for our heating bills!

KevBrads1
Friday, December 6, 2013 9:19:23 AM

Good summary Martin.

The setup remains me of December 1974 and December 1988 so the outlook is grim indeed and no that is not a 'Winter is over post'!

No easy way out of this, however, what may happen in time is that the jet will move south and bring wind and rain to the uk and we can get rid of the southern euro high pressure.

Such a re-set would then allow the opportunity for north westerly outbreaks and ultimately some northern blocking, but it's all a million miles away at the moment.

Andy

Originally Posted by: Andy Woodcock 




The set-up reminds me of December 2007 if anything. High pressure was to our east, which wasn't really the case with Decembers of 74 and 88

MANCHESTER SUMMER INDEX for 2021: 238
Timelapses, old weather forecasts and natural phenomena videos can be seen on this site
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Stormchaser
Friday, December 6, 2013 9:50:25 AM

There's no ignoring the fact that the polar setup projected over the next 10 days leaves us with little promise of anything notably cold over the next fortnight or so. We had a real opportunity to dodge the bullet, with the PV displacing far enough to allow blocking to our NE to have a say in things, but events in the Pacific look to pump too much energy into the PV near Greenland, resulting in a powerful vortex that dominates proceedings for some time, throwing energy NE to keep the blocking near/over the UK at lower latitudes.


It still looks to be too far upstream to bring much rain our way though, and I'm starting to think we might see one of the driest Decembers on record.




If you watch events over in the Pacific, you can spot our one realistic route to something more exciting, which is some energy dropping south and allowing high pressure to build over the top of it. Odds are that such an event would see the Atlantic flattening the high pretty fast, but even a brief cold spell would be a major achievement after having the polar profile projected for a few days from now.




During my busy working times, this boring December has a silver lining, but come mid-month when I take my festive break... well, I might end up revising even more than usual 


If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

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T-Max: 30.2°C 9th Sep (...!) | T-Min: -7.1°C 22nd & 23rd Jan | Wettest Day: 25.9mm 2nd Nov | Ice Days: 1 (2nd Dec -1.3°C in freezing fog)
Keep Calm and Forecast On
Gandalf The White
Friday, December 6, 2013 9:55:31 AM

Good summary Martin.

The setup remains me of December 1974 and December 1988 so the outlook is grim indeed and no that is not a 'Winter is over post'!

No easy way out of this, however, what may happen in time is that the jet will move south and bring wind and rain to the uk and we can get rid of the southern euro high pressure.

Such a re-set would then allow the opportunity for north westerly outbreaks and ultimately some northern blocking, but it's all a million miles away at the moment.

Andy

Originally Posted by: Andy Woodcock 



Ah, an expression that was seen here often in the days of Bartlett and Atlantic dominated winters. We used to get the current pattern, warmish uppers & some cooler air at the surface - and people would come up with "we need a pattern reset". We always did - except that we went from Euro high to something with the same uppers and warmer at the surface....

The prospects of anything getting north of the jet looks about nil at the moment. I can't see any short term way out of this - prepare for a green run up to Xmas.
Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


marcus72
Friday, December 6, 2013 10:29:43 AM

On the face of it the models would certainly appear to be showing a “locked in” pattern for some time to come. There are also plenty of members on here who have far more experience and knowledge than I do when it comes to interpreting the medium to long range forecasts. However, I just can’t help feeling that by the middle of next week we’ll be looking at something completely different. There’s just something about the “certainty” of it all this morning that makes me feel mother nature is going to stick two fingers up to all the super-computers and their respective outputs. I have no idea whether it’ll be a cold easterly or a mild and stormy attack from the Atlantic but this scenario just looks ripe for something to pop up out of nowhere and surprise us all.


Sorry, I know this is the model output thread and not the “I have a hunch” thread but with the output looking so dull I hope the mods don’t mind. It could actually be another one of those occasions that remind us not to be too confident, no matter what the models are showing. I may be eating my words come Wed but I’ll be watching with interest.


Purely from an IMBY perspective I’d be happy to take another week or two of high pressure influenced weather, as I look out on another beautiful clear and dry winters day.


Langstone, SE Hampshire
Maunder Minimum
Friday, December 6, 2013 11:12:31 AM

Not strictly relevant to MO I know, but my daughter has just emailed me to say they are having the blizzard of the century in Berlin at the moment.


They are so lucky with their weather in Germany.


New world order coming.
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