Remove ads from site

tallyho_83
08 February 2021 23:03:24

18z is actually very good for Sunday snow down here...shame it’s 6 days away !

Originally Posted by: squish 


Yes could be very snowy if this came off~! - Of course this may not happen. I also find it a little strange how Thursday night/Friday's snowfall event for Devon seems to have evaporated on the 18z GFS Op run but then as you stated above - the GFS suddenly picked up on this snow even for the SW on Sunday:



Home Location - Kellands Lane, Okehampton, Devon (200m ASL)
---------------------------------------
Sean Moon
Magical Moon
www.magical-moon.com


BJBlake
08 February 2021 23:55:18

Can anyone help me with an explanation?


First, this is the best snow since 2010 for me: Since Sunday night, it has not stopped snowing - even if like fine white sand or glassy diamonds at times, consistently -1 degrees, like some winter wonderland, dry fluffy snow heaven, (if useless for snow balls). I cannot remember how long its been the last time I have seen fluffy snow on snow during the winter proper, and such long lasting and stable a Scandi high. Its amazing. Probably 1991.

However, its a very odd phenomenon but the snow settles on the gravel and paving at night, remaining -1 degrees by day and night, and yet melts off the paving during the day, except for a leaf on the path, where it remains on the leaf like tuft, but on the adjacent paving, its wet, even though the  air is below freezing. It’s very odd, but is the stone absorbing light reflected off the snow and absorbing some of its energy? It’s an odd thing to observe. 


Heavy snow again now from this streamer - I dont need to look at the radar to see if its rain or snow - its like being on a skiing trip - just fanatastic...


Brecklands, South Norfolk 28m ASL
nsrobins
09 February 2021 05:45:09


Can anyone help me with an explanation?


First, this is the best snow since 2010 for me: Since Sunday night, it has not stopped snowing - even if like fine white sand or glassy diamonds at times, consistently -1 degrees, like some winter wonderland, dry fluffy snow heaven, (if useless for snow balls). I cannot remember how long its been the last time I have seen fluffy snow on snow during the winter proper, and such long lasting and stable a Scandi high. Its amazing. Probably 1991.

However, its a very odd phenomenon but the snow settles on the gravel and paving at night, remaining -1 degrees by day and night, and yet melts off the paving during the day, except for a leaf on the path, where it remains on the leaf like tuft, but on the adjacent paving, its wet, even though the  air is below freezing. It’s very odd, but is the stone absorbing light reflected off the snow and absorbing some of its energy? It’s an odd thing to observe. 


Heavy snow again now from this streamer - I dont need to look at the radar to see if its rain or snow - its like being on a skiing trip - just fanatastic...


Originally Posted by: BJBlake 


Ground temperature. In air (or suspended into the air such as on grass, on a spikey mat, on gravel, on a deck etc) it sticks as the air is sub zero. On flat paving in contact with the ground it slowly melts as the sub layer is just above at the moment and well above the deeper you go. This isn’t Siberia - yet! If it’s heavy it will accumulate as the melting itself will draw a bit of heat from the ground and lower its temperature, if only temporarily. There’s other processes to consider but this is probably the main one.


The message this morning is a prolonged cold spell is less likely.


Edit: Of course, you don’t have to check the NWP to know that. Just look at how busy (or quiet) it is on this thread.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
White Meadows
09 February 2021 06:41:31
Overwhelming support for mild to break through next week:

https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/show_diagrams.php?model=gfs&lid=ENS&var=2&bw=1&geoid=49069 

But to what extent, anyone’s guess
White Meadows
09 February 2021 06:43:39


Can anyone help me with an explanation?


First, this is the best snow since 2010 for me: Since Sunday night, it has not stopped snowing - even if like fine white sand or glassy diamonds at times, consistently -1 degrees, like some winter wonderland, dry fluffy snow heaven, (if useless for snow balls). I cannot remember how long its been the last time I have seen fluffy snow on snow during the winter proper, and such long lasting and stable a Scandi high. Its amazing. Probably 1991.

However, its a very odd phenomenon but the snow settles on the gravel and paving at night, remaining -1 degrees by day and night, and yet melts off the paving during the day, except for a leaf on the path, where it remains on the leaf like tuft, but on the adjacent paving, its wet, even though the  air is below freezing. It’s very odd, but is the stone absorbing light reflected off the snow and absorbing some of its energy? It’s an odd thing to observe. 


Heavy snow again now from this streamer - I dont need to look at the radar to see if its rain or snow - its like being on a skiing trip - just fanatastic...


Originally Posted by: BJBlake 

Ground temps are warmer than the air. Simple.

Crepuscular Ray
09 February 2021 06:59:59
ECM and GFS both flipped back to a milder win next week with the 0Z

Retired last night so pleased with the ECM, GFS and longer BBC Forecasts all bullish about a cold win

Oh well, the wait for the 06Z and I do have 3-4 inches of powder outside at -2 C!!
Jerry
Edinburgh, in the frost hollow below Blackford Hill
Boardshark
09 February 2021 07:05:51

ECM and GFS both flipped back to a milder win next week with the 0Z

Retired last night so pleased with the ECM, GFS and longer BBC Forecasts all bullish about a cold win

Oh well, the wait for the 06Z and I do have 3-4 inches of powder outside at -2 C!!

Originally Posted by: Crepuscular Ray 


enjoy retirement!!


449ft Sutton Coldfield, West MIdlands
SnowyHythe(Kent)
09 February 2021 07:09:53

I’m not saying the milder air isn’t going to succeed because this morning it is the form horse but I just don’t see it happening as swiftly as the models are saying..

Laths
09 February 2021 07:15:01
Also a bit of sublimation thrown in as well .
John
Wallington
Surrey
(London Borough of Sutton)
DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
09 February 2021 07:23:26

General expectation of a battle between mild Atlantic and cold Continent this week. Yesterday most soufces were backing the cold to continue; this morning there's a flip to mild. And overnight flips don't give much confidence in the outcome.


Jetstream well S of UK at the moment; it gets closer at the weekend and then enters a week or so (to Wed 17th where there's a strong jet across the Atlantic only to fragment as it approaches the UK with occasional bits flicking north across Britain. Traditional strong throughflow rebuilds, still only  over the S of England, and is in place by Mon 22nd.


GFS builds on this concept, keeping LP on the Atlantic and not progressing, as yesterday, but unlike yesterday the HP over Scandi is much weaker and winds are now mainly from the S, not E or SE, from  Thu 11th through to Mon 22nd when the Atlantic fires up again and pushes a couple of (smallish) depressions across Scotland


GEFS temps rising to seasonal norm by Sun 14th and quite good agreement for a slow rise (in Scotland just levels off) through to Mon 22nd before dropping back slightly. More runs with some rain from the 14th, but still not large amounts. 


ECM agrees with GFS and goes on suggest a positively balmy S-ly on Fri 19th with air starting from somewhere S of the western Sahara. First plume of the year? Snowmelt problems for Scotland?


 


War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

Chichester 12m asl
BJBlake
09 February 2021 07:32:56

At least a few GFS Perts showing a return to cold, I.e. 6-7, so not total abandonment just yet, but it is looking bleak - esp after the BBC mention yesterday of a prolonged cold spell - always the kiss of death: LOL


Brecklands, South Norfolk 28m ASL
BJBlake
09 February 2021 07:43:14


 


Ground temperature. In air (or suspended into the air such as on grass, on a spikey mat, on gravel, on a deck etc) it sticks as the air is sub zero. On flat paving in contact with the ground it slowly melts as the sub layer is just above at the moment and well above the deeper you go. This isn’t Siberia - yet! If it’s heavy it will accumulate as the melting itself will draw a bit of heat from the ground and lower its temperature, if only temporarily. There’s other processes to consider but this is probably the main one.


The message this morning is a prolonged cold spell is less likely.


Edit: Of course, you don’t have to check the NWP to know that. Just look at how busy (or quiet) it is on this thread.


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 

OK - sounds reasonable. Thank you for the full answer. The only oddity though is why this does not happen at night. The air temp has been consistently -1 day and night, but its only in the day that you see this melting. At night there is some thinning, as you’d expect from the ground temp causation, but not the extensive melt of the daytime.


Brecklands, South Norfolk 28m ASL
BJBlake
09 February 2021 07:45:41


Ground temps are warmer than the air. Simple.


Originally Posted by: White Meadows 

Thank you White Meadows. It’s odd though that this happens mostly by day (bar some thinning overnight) though, even though the air temp remains constant.


Brecklands, South Norfolk 28m ASL
PFCSCOTTY
09 February 2021 07:46:28


At least a few GFS Perts showing a return to cold, I.e. 6-7, so not total abandonment just yet, but it is looking bleak - esp after the BBC mention yesterday of a prolonged cold spell - always the kiss of death: LOL


Originally Posted by: BJBlake 


Despite what some say about the BBC having more access to data ,they always seem to be behind the curve of the models we see , certainly in the areas most amateurs focus on ,,extreme cold or snow and storms in summer. 


I can recall many times thinking why are they saying that, when many amateurs are suggesting a change 24hrs earlier. 

SnowyHythe(Kent)
09 February 2021 07:48:52
ECM mean at 144 fully supports a mild victory..
Rob K
09 February 2021 07:51:29
So is GEM the new king of the models? First to pick out this cold evolution and stick with it when all others said no, and first to pick out the end when all others kept the cold going.

Looks like a disappointing end to the spell with the angle of attack all wrong and little or no snow before the mild air pushes through. GEFS has us back to mild temps by the 15th rather than 18th/19th yesterday.

Still time for a twist or two yet though!
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Ally Pally Snowman
09 February 2021 07:52:28

ECM mean at 144 fully supports a mild victory..

Originally Posted by: SnowyHythe(Kent) 


Yep looks like it , still cold until probably the 15th though. And a very good chance of an easterly later in the month.


 


 


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Hippydave
09 February 2021 07:54:21

GFS and ECM broadly singing from the same hymn sheet this morning - temps starting to recover from or just after 15th February. Minority options for prolonging the cold in the ens suites still though. Probably worth just mentioning that at the surface the ECM Op doesn't really warm up much for MBY - I assume despite the wind flow tilting southerly or even SSW the continent to my West is cold enough to maintain low level cold.


GEM op similar, no idea about the ens. 


I've not been religiously checking the models but as others have mentioned my impression is today is noticeably more in favour of mild air and a retreating/sinking block and I'd wait and see if that theme stays for a few runs before calling it. If we do keep it cold IMBY until and including the 15th, that'll be 10 days for this cold spell which is very good going!


Home: Tunbridge Wells
Work: Tonbridge
Ally Pally Snowman
09 February 2021 07:54:37

So is GEM the new king of the models? First to pick out this cold evolution and stick with it when all others said no, and first to pick out the end when all others kept the cold going.

Looks like a disappointing end to the spell with the angle of attack all wrong and little or no snow before the mild air pushes through. GEFS has us back to mild temps by the 15th rather than 18th/19th yesterday.

Still time for a twist or two yet though!

Originally Posted by: Rob K 


 


GEM has been getting better and better recently,  hopefully it will be analysed much more here.


 


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
marco 79
09 February 2021 07:56:44
Beeb still bullish about cold being the form horse this morning...mmm!
Home : Mid Leicestershire ...135m ASL
Brian Gaze
09 February 2021 08:05:15


Can anyone help me with an explanation?


First, this is the best snow since 2010 for me: Since Sunday night, it has not stopped snowing - even if like fine white sand or glassy diamonds at times, consistently -1 degrees, like some winter wonderland, dry fluffy snow heaven, (if useless for snow balls). I cannot remember how long its been the last time I have seen fluffy snow on snow during the winter proper, and such long lasting and stable a Scandi high. Its amazing. Probably 1991.

However, its a very odd phenomenon but the snow settles on the gravel and paving at night, remaining -1 degrees by day and night, and yet melts off the paving during the day, except for a leaf on the path, where it remains on the leaf like tuft, but on the adjacent paving, its wet, even though the  air is below freezing. It’s very odd, but is the stone absorbing light reflected off the snow and absorbing some of its energy? It’s an odd thing to observe. 


Heavy snow again now from this streamer - I dont need to look at the radar to see if its rain or snow - its like being on a skiing trip - just fanatastic...


Originally Posted by: BJBlake 


On Twitter yesterday I mentioned the possibility of overcast skies radiating heat back down to the ground as an additional factor. 


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
backtobasics
09 February 2021 08:07:28
Decent output this morning with a trend away from prolonged cold, will be looking for a continuation of this for a few days now.
Hippydave
09 February 2021 08:08:53


 


 


GEM has been getting better and better recently,  hopefully it will be analysed much more here.


 


Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 


GEM OP didn't though (from Rob's comments) stick with the cold, it reduced duration etc. down here very much like the GFS op. It also didn't pick it up first as the ECM extended suite and GFS both had the cold spell from a long way out. ECM though stuck to it one blip aside, GFS suite as we know had a full on toddler tantrum and had to sit on the naughty step for a while. 


All that said GEM is undoubtedly a model worth looking at is it does verify well but I think the stats often show that it's at it's best at T120 versus GFS/ECM and often the worst at T240. (Could be wrong though). 


Home: Tunbridge Wells
Work: Tonbridge
Rob K
09 February 2021 08:14:38


Ground temps are warmer than the air. Simple.


Originally Posted by: White Meadows 


And more specifically different materials conduct that heat better or worse. A concrete path will be fairly thick and concrete conducts heat quite well so the bottom of the concrete will be able to carry heat from the warmer soil quite a few inches below the surface (depending on the thickness of the concrete and sub base etc).


Tarmac seems to be a better insulator so often you will see the snow settling on tarmac but melting on adjacent concrete paving slabs etc. 


I may be wrong but that is my best understanding of why it happens. I know that certain surfaces around my garden always melt the snow even if it’s very cold. The concrete path around the house is one of them. 


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
BJBlake
09 February 2021 08:16:15


 


On Twitter yesterday I mentioned the possibility of overcast skies radiating heat back down to the ground as an additional factor. 


Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 

Thanks Brian, yes that would explain it. It fits the observation.


Brecklands, South Norfolk 28m ASL

Remove ads from site

Ads