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Quantum
22 March 2020 20:54:29

Christ MERS is back in Saudi.


 


Twitter: @QuantumOverlord (general), @MedicaneWatch (medicane/TC stuff)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
RobN
  • RobN
  • Advanced Member
22 March 2020 20:57:29


 


I think you are misinterpreting what it means.


It's a scientific judgement based on the characteristics of the virus.  It doesn't pretend to look at other aspects or the consequences of the illness.


 


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


It seems to satisfy 5 out of the 6 criteria though none of these are very precisely defined. What exactly is "high case fatality rate" for example which is the one it might not meet - unless you happen to be over 70?


I suspect it is due to the fact that only a small number of centres are specified as being capable of handling HCID cases. This is clearly totally impossible. So as a fudge they have "technically" downgraded it.


Rob
In the flatlands of South Cambridgeshire 15m ASL.
Brian Gaze
22 March 2020 21:04:21


Speaking of which, big drop in number of cases today. Only 665.


My JFF model is actually only predicting 30k cases in total today.


It's showing a fairly rapid drop in R0 which I'm suprised about tbh. Not going to get optimistic, suspect it's more to do with bad data than anything else.


If testing is really ramping up then the approximation that we are resolving a fixed proportion of cases may no longer be valid.


 


So may add an additional parameter to my model which assumes a linear growth in resolving capability over time. Will wait maybe a week to do this though.


 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


What was it predicting yesterday?


On reflection the drop in deaths today is quite surprising in the UK. I believe disastrous outcomes on the NHS are more likely at weekends.  


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Gooner
22 March 2020 21:06:13


 


The statement says the initial classification was a provisional one, pending further information.


"The 4 nations public health HCID group made an interim recommendation in January 2020 to classify COVID-19 as an HCID. This was based on consideration of the UK HCID criteria about the virus and the disease with information available during the early stages of the outbreak. Now that more is known about COVID-19, the public health bodies in the UK have reviewed the most up to date information about COVID-19 against the UK HCID criteria. They have determined that several features have now changed; in particular, more information is available about mortality rates (low overall), and there is now greater clinical awareness and a specific and sensitive laboratory test, the availability of which continues to increase."


 


https://www.gov.uk/guidance/high-consequence-infectious-diseases-hcid#status-of-covid-19


 


I don't think a technical note like this is going to change anyone's behaviour one way or another, to be honest.


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


Really?, I do ,  those that can be bothered to find the information will see it as less of a threat 


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Chichesterweatherfan2
22 March 2020 21:08:00


In my walk today I saw several people in their early 20s and even quite a few teenagers.


These are truly unprecedented times!


Originally Posted by: xioni2 


 


love your sense of humour, Xioni!  - we need more of  this ... lots more....

Gooner
22 March 2020 21:11:30


 


What was it predicting yesterday?


On reflection the drop in deaths today is quite surprising in the UK. I believe disastrous outcomes on the NHS are more likely at weekends.  


Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


I think the only way any possible judgement can be made is looking at the number of tests that have been taken compared to previous days.


Surely deaths are a side issue on each day as it depends on the individuals who are fighting it in hospital and the age , and underlying issues and how long they can fight it off , we could see over 100 deaths tomorrow , who knows .


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Brian Gaze
22 March 2020 21:11:50

UK still not looking good on Burn-Murdoch's plot which is now updated for 22/03. 


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ETvUun-WAAEd5w8?format=jpg&name=large


 


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
xioni2
22 March 2020 21:18:49


 On reflection the drop in deaths today is quite surprising in the UK. I believe disastrous outcomes on the NHS are more likely at weekends.  


Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


I wouldn't pay much attention to the day-to-day variations. Also these are not normals times so what you say about the NHS is probably not valid during this period.

Gooner
22 March 2020 21:24:04

Wow - McDonalds is closing from tomorrow. Even for drive through and takeaway.

Things just got real for the ‘yoof’.

Originally Posted by: John p 


That's surely something to make the PM take notice 


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


CreweCold
22 March 2020 21:26:19
Anyone else think McDonalds closing is as a result of being briefed that a full lockdown is imminent?

Crewe, Cheshire
55 metres above sea level
Gooner
22 March 2020 21:27:47

Anyone else think McDonalds closing is as a result of being briefed that a full lockdown is imminent?

Originally Posted by: CreweCold 


American influence showing the way to Boris 


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Heavy Weather 2013
22 March 2020 21:32:44

Anyone else think McDonalds closing is as a result of being briefed that a full lockdown is imminent?

Originally Posted by: CreweCold 


Its an interesting question because a few major retail outlets have announced they are shutting tomorrow.


Mark
Beckton, E London
Less than 500m from the end of London City Airport runway.
xioni2
22 March 2020 21:33:52

Anyone else think McDonalds closing is as a result of being briefed that a full lockdown is imminent?

Originally Posted by: CreweCold 


Perhaps, but I think it's more likely that they want to show they are socially responsible.

Brian Gaze
22 March 2020 21:35:38

Been told that a few of the pubs around here had to remain open this weekend for "cleaning". 


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
xioni2
22 March 2020 21:36:58


She concluded: “No health service is prepared for this number of patients but February was really the time when we should have been full speed ahead. Today we still don’t have enough masks and gowns for medical staff. I think it’s because [the planners] messed up.” Yesterday she added by tweet: “It makes me feel nauseous how little action was taken early on. Academic navel-gazing and political in-fighting instead of bold decisive action.”


 Sridhar added: “We decided to take a different path to other countries, thinking we knew better. We should have been learning from other countries about breaking the chain of transmission, mass testing, tracing contacts. If we had started with the 25,000 tests a day they are promising only now, we would already be bending that curve [of transmission rate]. Every day that goes by [without government action] we need harsher and harsher measures.”


“We know that lockdowns work,” said Adam Kucharski, a researcher at the LSHTM and author of The Rules of Contagion, a new book examining the spread of infectious diseases.


Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


Thanks for posting this. I am surprised that not more has been made of this by the media. Only just 10 days ago it was all about herd immunity, avoiding a 2nd wave and how much better and more clever we were than other countries which were shutting down everything.


Anyway, the more I read about what the Asian countries have got right is not just the number of tests. The crucial aspect of their approach is the tracing and isolation of all contacts of the infected people. They do it in a forensic manner and it really works. They are essentially finding the virus and isolate it and starve it of new hosts. 


The UK and Europe should try and do this after the lockdowns are lifted, otherwise it will just come back.

Gooner
22 March 2020 21:39:05


 


Perhaps, but I think it's more likely that they want to show they are socially responsible.


Originally Posted by: xioni2 


And probably because most of the world are looking at the UK and wondering why we are dragging our feet in comparison.


Wouldn't surprise me if DT had a word with someone , puts them in a good light 


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


springsunshine
22 March 2020 21:46:54

Anyone else think McDonalds closing is as a result of being briefed that a full lockdown is imminent?

Originally Posted by: CreweCold 


Iam sure total lockdown is being considered as in everywhere shuts but I think that will only come if the figures get much worse as the week progreses but again I reiterate it can`t be enforced due to lack of police numbers.

Gooner
22 March 2020 21:48:27


 


Thanks for posting this. I am surprised that not more has been made of this by the media. Only just 10 days ago it was all about herd immunity, avoiding a 2nd wave and how much better and more clever we were than other countries which were shutting down everything.


Anyway, the more I read about what the Asian countries have got right is not just the number of tests. The crucial aspect of their approach is the tracing and isolation of all contacts of the infected people. They do it in a forensic manner and it really works. They are essentially finding the virus and isolate it and starve it of new hosts. 


The UK and Europe should try and do this after the lockdowns are lifted, otherwise it will just come back.


Originally Posted by: xioni2 


A good read indeed , and as many have said including WHO test test test and we aren't anywhere near the numbers the likes of Korea are testing , I saw a report today where members of their public get a text to tell them where the latest location of the virus is and gets you to avoid the area , very clever .


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


xioni2
22 March 2020 21:53:09

More from The Times about the government's massive U turn:


The meeting that will change British society for a generation took place on the evening of Thursday, March 12. That was when the strategic advisory group of experts (Sage in Whitehall parlance), the government’s committee of scientists and medics, gathered to examine modelling from experts at Imperial College London and other institutions.


The results were shattering. A week earlier, councils had been warned to expect about 100,000 deaths from Covid-19. Now Chris Whitty, the chief medical officer, and Sir Patrick Vallance, the chief scientific adviser, realised the estimates were wrong.


“Unmitigated, the death number was 510,000,” a senior figure said. “Mitigated we were told it was going to be 250,000. Once you see a figure of take no further action and a quarter of a million people die, the question you ask is, ‘What action?’” Another insider said: “There was a collision between the science and reality.”


For two months the government had time to prepare, but Johnson’s instincts were to resist a life-changing crackdown. “There was a lot of talk about how this was just a bit of flu,” one senior Tory recalled.


Dominic Cummings, the prime minister’s senior aide, became convinced that Britain would be better able to resist a lethal second wave of the disease next winter if Whitty’s prediction that 60% to 80% of the population became infected was right and the UK developed “herd immunity”.


At a private engagement at the end of February, Cummings outlined the government’s strategy. Those present say it was “herd immunity, protect the economy and if that means some pensioners die, too bad”.


At the Sage meeting on March 12, a moment now dubbed the “Domoscene conversion”, Cummings changed his mind. In this “penny-drop moment”, he realised he had helped set a course for catastrophe. Until this point, the rise in British infections had been below the European average. Now they were above it and on course to emulate Italy, where the picture was bleak. A minister said: “Seeing what was happening in Italy was the galvanising force across government.”


By Friday, March 13, Cummings had become the most outspoken advocate of a tough crackdown. “Dominic himself had a conversion,” a senior Tory said. “He’s gone from ‘herd immunity and let the old people die’, to ‘let’s shut down the country and the economy.’”


Cummings had a “meeting of minds” with Matt Hancock, the health secretary, who wanted stronger action to prevent NHS hospitals being swamped. Department of Health officials had impressed on Hancock that the death rate in Wuhan province was 3.4% when the hospitals were overrun and 0.7% elsewhere in China.


Johnson had also been queasy about the previous original approach. “Boris hated the language of ‘herd immunity’ because it implied that it was OK for people to die,” a senior source said. “Matt hated the language because it implied we had given up. You’ve got to fight.”


The problem for the government was that at the moment herd immunity was being banished from policy, it had become the focus of publicity. That Wednesday, David Halpern of the Whitehall “nudge unit” put the phrase in the public domain. Two days later, Vallance repeated the idea on Radio 4. With Italy, France and Spain going into lockdown, the government’s critics accused Johnson of refusing to act because he wanted people to get ill.


Insiders say it was “very bumpy” that Friday. “The meetings were very messy,” said one source. But when Johnson gathered his key advisers in the cabinet room at 9.15am last Saturday there was unanimity. Whitty and Vallance explained that Britain had been four weeks behind Italy “and now we are closer”.


The two experts, together with Hancock and Cummings, all delivered to Johnson one message: “Now is the moment to act.” The prime minister agreed: “We must work around the clock and take all necessary measures.” One of those present said: “The mood in the room was astonishing. You could tell that something very significant had shifted.”


Whitty and Vallance began their own press conferences at the end of the week amid concern that some of Johnson’s pronouncements — including a claim that they could “turn the tide” within 12 weeks — were not grounded in evidence. “Some of the experts are appalled by some of his claims,” a Whitehall source said. A Tory aide said: “Boris looks haunted. It’s like when George W Bush came in thinking he was going to be the education-reforming president and had to deal with the war on terror.” Another senior Tory said: “Boris is shellshocked.”


Johnson, who is a civil libertarian at heart, spent the week resisting Cummings’s demands for a full-blown lockdown of London — banning inhabitants from travelling outside the city.


A senior Tory said: “Boris really doesn’t want to shut stuff down. He is more worried than most about the economic impact but also the social impact of locking people up in their homes for months. Fundamentally there is a Boris-Dom cleavage. First Boris bottled herd immunity. Now he’s bottling lockdown.”


However, many sources report that the Downing Street machine is fast running out of steam. “Everyone is working to capacity and is absolutely exhausted,” said one insider. “It’s utter chaos and there is no end in sight.”


Businesses phoning up to offer help say Downing Street seems “swamped”. One ventilator manufacturer claimed on Newsnight that the government had not put in any orders — though sources say 1,400 firms are offering to build them and by Friday morning eight companies who have never made a ventilator were turning them out.


Some in Downing Street are turning to drink. An aide joked on Thursday that they had run out of hand sanitiser and were “using the contents of a vodka miniature” instead. Others are recruiting old friends. Gabriel Milland, a former head of press to Michael Gove, was drafted into No 10 last week. Tom Shinner, the civil servant who did the most to prepare Britain for a no-deal Brexit, who left the government last year, has also been rehired.


Numerous sources say Gove has repeatedly sniped at Hancock. “There have been tensions over where responsibilities begin and end,” one observed. Some ministers are lobbying to see Gove take charge if Johnson is incapacitated with Covid-19 or if he takes paternity leave, though Sunak ranks higher in the cabinet rankings on the gov.uk website and the job is likely to be Raab’s, since he is officially “first secretary of state”.


But there are perils ahead. “Boris and his team are absolutely terrified because it will not be the NHS by end of this,” a Whitehall source said. “It will be the corona health service and will just be there to pump oxygen into patients.”


MPs speculate that there will be two big inquiries — an international one into the origins of the virus in China’s live animal “wet markets”; and a second into the government’s preparations and policy decisions. “If we end up like Italy in two weeks’ time and 30-year-old doctors are dropping dead, the government is going to be in big trouble,” a Labour MP said.


 


 

Polar Low
22 March 2020 21:55:20

The copper next door reckons it will be a 1k fine if positive and you are walking about outside or caught driving without good reason ie work or carer, shopping etc


 



 


Iam sure total lockdown is being considered as in everywhere shuts but I think that will only come if the figures get much worse as the week progreses but again I reiterate it can`t be enforced due to lack of police numbers.


Originally Posted by: springsunshine 

CreweCold
22 March 2020 21:58:36


 


Iam sure total lockdown is being considered as in everywhere shuts but I think that will only come if the figures get much worse as the week progreses but again I reiterate it can`t be enforced due to lack of police numbers.


Originally Posted by: springsunshine 


There are more police out there than you think. The overt ones and the ones that aren't so obvious. Live cameras in most built up areas plus the likelihood of the army being drafted. 


It will on take one or two incidents of harsh penalties being imposed on people and others will not want to chance it.



Crewe, Cheshire
55 metres above sea level
fairweather
22 March 2020 22:04:46


 


It's not about the number of deaths as such though, is it?  It's purely based on the R0 value, as far as I can see.


The number of deaths is a function of the containment measures put in place and the extent to which they are obeyed - and the capability of the NHS to cope.


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


A lot of people (not you or anybody specifically) seem to miss the point that this is not just about the virus. It is about ICUs which were already fully used for children being run over, a transplant that had led to sepsis or young kid that had been stabbed and so on. We are trying to save these people as well by our isolation actions. I don't think many can see that.


S.Essex, 42m ASL
Tom Oxon
22 March 2020 22:06:54


 


Thanks for posting this. I am surprised that not more has been made of this by the media. Only just 10 days ago it was all about herd immunity, avoiding a 2nd wave and how much better and more clever we were than other countries which were shutting down everything.


Anyway, the more I read about what the Asian countries have got right is not just the number of tests. The crucial aspect of their approach is the tracing and isolation of all contacts of the infected people. They do it in a forensic manner and it really works. They are essentially finding the virus and isolate it and starve it of new hosts. 


The UK and Europe should try and do this after the lockdowns are lifted, otherwise it will just come back.


Originally Posted by: xioni2 


To be honest, the end-game in this will ultimately have to be herd immunity, either through slow spread of the virus or (preferably) mass vaccination.  Given there is probably another winter between now and mass-vaccination, I don't see the Asian countries not having another flare up in their population, you won't be able to get everyone. I think I read something on 1 infected person free-roaming indirectly infects 30,000 and that extrapolates.  It's going to be very hard to constantly get a lid on this until there is herd immunity and that's the brutal truth.


S Warwickshire countryside, c.375ft asl.
Lionel Hutz
22 March 2020 22:06:59


 


Perhaps, but I think it's more likely that they want to show they are socially responsible.


Originally Posted by: xioni2 


Would falling footfall on high streets be part of it too? If you have few customers, it may make economic sense to close and reduce your losses. 


Lionel Hutz
Nr.Waterford , S E Ireland
68m ASL



Polar Low
22 March 2020 22:07:55

If it’s done like a few years ago when you were asked to pull over to get the car a once look over and tax checked etc.


it would have quite an effect.


A lot of those were mobile units and caught you by surprise I remember turning around a couple of times just in time as I had dogie front tyres in those days


mk3 zodiac was a wonderful car 


 


 



 


There are more police out there than you think. The overt ones and the ones that aren't so obvious. Live cameras in most built up areas plus the likelihood of the army being drafted. 


It will on take one or two incidents of harsh penalties being imposed on people and others will not want to chance it.


Originally Posted by: CreweCold 

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