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Gandalf The White
06 December 2022 21:41:23

Shocking downgrade for the ECM mean
Is this the moment we all feared?
https://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf.php?ech=240&mode=1&map=0&type=1&archive=0 

Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 



Shocking downgrade?  In global modelling terms that's really quite a minor adjustment, ten days away.  It's way to soon to call upgrades or downgrades that far away, IMHO.
Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


DPower
06 December 2022 21:49:23
Rather run the risk of the Atlantic low engaging the cold air and see what transpires than have maybe a week of hard to severe frosts, daytime temps barely above freezing and absolutely bone dry. 
Brian Gaze
06 December 2022 21:50:03
Big shift on ECM ENS 12z. Similar movement to GEFS 12z.

UserPostedImage
Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
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"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
doctormog
06 December 2022 22:01:38

Big shift on ECM ENS 12z. Similar movement to GEFS 12z.

UserPostedImage

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 



The 12th/13th is the time where the uncertainty starts. I suspect it will be another few days before we have clarity for that period.

Before then things look constantly cold and this theme continues on the 18z GFS op run: https://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/GFSOPEU18_108_1.png 
White Meadows
06 December 2022 22:17:33
Ghastly pub run for extended cold. Fun and games for the north east before then however. 
Brian Gaze
06 December 2022 22:20:11

Ghastly pub run for extended cold. Fun and games for the north east before then however. 

Originally Posted by: White Meadows 



on TWO it is out to t+180 and it looks good for cold weather fans.

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Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
doctormog
06 December 2022 22:22:00

on TWO it is out to t+180 and it looks good for cold weather fans.

UserPostedImage 

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 



Ghastly for people's heating bills.
nsrobins
06 December 2022 22:22:06

Ghastly pub run for extended cold. Fun and games for the north east before then however. 

Originally Posted by: White Meadows 


And there was I thinking the 18Z GFS has swung towards prolonging the cold spell again but what do I know? 😎
Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Gandalf The White
06 December 2022 22:23:53

Ghastly pub run for extended cold. Fun and games for the north east before then however. 

Originally Posted by: White Meadows 



Eh?  I'm watching it roll out and it looks absolutely fine so far, out to Day 9.  The LP over Poland/Germany is being modeled to edge west, advecting slightly colder air our way v the 12z.
Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


ballamar
06 December 2022 22:25:45

And there was I thinking the 18Z GFS has swung towards prolonging the cold spell again but what do I know? 😎

Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


about to say the same, will listen to the comments now rather than look
Karl Guille
06 December 2022 22:29:35
No let up to the generally cold outlook at T210 with -6 uppers across the whole of the UK.
https://modeles16.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2022120618/gfs-1-210.png?18 
St. Sampson
Guernsey
The Beast from the East
06 December 2022 22:45:55
Control looks ok too. Lets Hope ECM and UKMO are being too progressive
https://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gefs_cartes.php?code=0&ech=132&mode=0&carte=0&ext=0 
"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
idot
  • idot
  • Advanced Member
06 December 2022 22:48:43
Gastly for anyone who has been here for years and seen it all before.. #whathappensnext
dagspot
06 December 2022 22:49:02
oh i dont know if im coming or going. Earlier, winter was over and now the pendulum swung back?  I'll give it 24hrs... 
Neilston 600ft ASL
idot
  • idot
  • Advanced Member
06 December 2022 22:54:08
it would be great to see someone's profile to the left of their post again Brian - knowing where someone is is impprtant in this - as is how mnay posts theve made #nimby
Arbroath 1320
06 December 2022 23:05:22

No let up to the generally cold outlook at T210 with -6 uppers across the whole of the UK.
https://modeles16.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2022120618/gfs-1-210.png?18 

Originally Posted by: Karl Guille 



Beyond t210 GFS loses the plot. It spawns a dartboard low over Greenland which then crashes SEwards head on with High pressure to our North, pushing it out the way as if it's not there 😅

It's almost as if the model wants to get to a breakdown by the end of the run, but doesn't know how to do it. 
 
GGTTH
David M Porter
06 December 2022 23:08:30

Eh?  I'm watching it roll out and it looks absolutely fine so far, out to Day 9.  The LP over Poland/Germany is being modeled to edge west, advecting slightly colder air our way v the 12z.

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 



Yes, I too was wondering where WM was coming from with that comment about the GFS 18z being ghastly for continued cold. Looks better in that regard than the GFS 12z and the ECM 12z op runs, in my view.
Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
Rob K
06 December 2022 23:19:59

Yes, I too was wondering where WM was coming from with that comment about the GFS 18z being ghastly for continued cold. Looks better in that regard than the GFS 12z and the ECM 12z op runs, in my view.

Originally Posted by: David M Porter 


Well the 850s rise above zero for about 12 hours at T294. Perhaps that's what he meant. 
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Gandalf The White
06 December 2022 23:21:33

Yes, I too was wondering where WM was coming from with that comment about the GFS 18z being ghastly for continued cold. Looks better in that regard than the GFS 12z and the ECM 12z op runs, in my view.

Originally Posted by: David M Porter 



Hi David, 

Yes, better than the GFS 12z and it handles the LP approaching (or in this case not approaching) from the SW very differently. It does mean no widespread snow event but it also drops a deep LP SSE from Baffin Bay, west of Greenland, down into the North Sea and sets up a renewed Arctic plunge as we head towards Xmas.

Obviously it will all change again in the 00z and that evolution may not have much ensemble support. It just shows how tricky this is going to be.  The Met Office guy on that YouTube video was saying it will be several more days before the behaviour of that LP away to the SW is resolved.
Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Gandalf The White
06 December 2022 23:22:35

Well the 850s rise above zero for about 12 hours at T294. Perhaps that's what he meant. 

Originally Posted by: Rob K 



Except the run was only out to about T+168 when he posted that comment.
Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


fairweather
06 December 2022 23:22:43

Well, you're both right in different ways.  The ensemble suite is useful for gauging the stability of the evolution in the short- to medium-term, ie perhaps out to 4 or 5 days.   It is beyond that the ensembles can't detect something unexpected that happens in the atmosphere: clearly things do change otherwise the forecast charts would be rock solid for a much longer period of time.  We have all seen the ensemble suite flip unexpectedly; it's happened in the last couple of days, as Brian commented.

As Rumsfeld said, in a different context, there are known unknowns but there are also the unknown unknowns. It's the latter that brings the uncertainty.

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


I suspect the OP meant that individual members of the ensemble rather than "the ENS are just as fallible as a single chart". A single chart (by that I am asuming a chart from one model run) is efffecively one element of the ensemble, which by definition is a collection of all of them. It is all the perturbations viewed together. Thus viewed as such we can see the variability and the deviation from the mean will indicate the degree of confidence around that mean.
S.Essex, 42m ASL
fairweather
06 December 2022 23:27:31

Shocking downgrade for the ECM mean
Is this the moment we all feared?
https://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf.php?ech=240&mode=1&map=0&type=1&archive=0 

Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


No, it's the moment that happens every year. Except every ten it doesn't. You only have to read or remember the threads every winter since 2013 to know that!
S.Essex, 42m ASL
David M Porter
06 December 2022 23:43:32

Hi David, 

Yes, better than the GFS 12z and it handles the LP approaching (or in this case not approaching) from the SW very differently. It does mean no widespread snow event but it also drops a deep LP SSE from Baffin Bay, west of Greenland, down into the North Sea and sets up a renewed Arctic plunge as we head towards Xmas.

Obviously it will all change again in the 00z and that evolution may not have much ensemble support. It just shows how tricky this is going to be.  The Met Office guy on that YouTube video was saying it will be several more days before the behaviour of that LP away to the SW is resolved.

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 



Hi Peter 🙂

If the GFS 18z op is right (a big 'if' in itself), it could be that the LP to the south-west doesn't really make inroads to the UK at all and simply decays to the south. An added complication as suggested by that run is the possible development of another low over Greenland which then dives south-eastwards towards the UK. Hopefully, by the time we get to the end of this week, we will have a rather better idea of what will likely transpire from early next week onwards.
Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
Rob K
07 December 2022 00:17:34
GEFS mean just about keeps the 850s subzero at the critical point. 
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Russwirral
07 December 2022 00:40:48
From what i can see, there has seem to have been either a watering down or a subtle change in the charts over the past few days.

Although its looking cold, it doesnt look that cold for widespread snow, indeed showers look marginal, and thats if there are showers, if anything any subtle signs of some showers developing seem all but gone.  BBC called this 2 days ago and 8 think theyve got the short term spot on. Snow to northern scotland and NE england... some showers to ireland... even the temps seem a little up on where they first were. In the main, this looks dry. Which is disapointing given the synoptics of a LP diving south over the uk.

Hoping for inprovements 

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