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nsrobins
Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10:45:12 AM

One of the blocked versions appearing for the OP this morning - a big, fat Eurasian version that probably won't be of too much significance but at least it shifts the Sceuro out of the way.
Perhaps it's a reaction to the phantom strat warming event over Asia?


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
turbotubbs
Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10:49:04 AM


According to Joe B on twitter, snow cover over the continental US is close to record highs for the time if year, almost two thirds of the nation has snow cover. Not much hope of cold here when America is so cold.

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


Why?


Originally Posted by: Rob K 

No idea, but in my yourh I recall being told that what America got, we got 2-3 weeks later. I suspect that is as much b**ll*cks as most weather lore, but there you go.


Snow cover can have significant effects on weather patterns, but I don't know enough to comment.


Are we clutching at straws now and waiting fo a zonal reset?

Rob K
Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10:49:20 AM

According to Joe B on twitter, snow cover over the continental US is close to record highs for the time if year, almost two thirds of the nation has snow cover. Not much hope of cold here when America is so cold.

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


Why?

Originally Posted by: Rob K 


If the jet is forced south over the US then most of the time we are right under the highest point of the wave as it rebounds northwards. It's hardly ever cold there and here at the same time. Warm southerlies up the east coast are what we want to see.

Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
colin46
Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10:54:43 AM


Good morning. Here is the report on the midnight outputs of GFS, UKMO, GEM, NAVGEM and ECM for today Tuesday December 9th 2013.


All models show a mild Southerly flow over the UK between High pressure over Southeast Europe and Low pressure over the mid Atlantic. The mildest conditions are shown towards the NW where Southerly breezes will be at their strongest with a little rain at times. In the SE drier continental air may filter across over the next 24-48 hurs bringing slightly less mild air and a greater risk of mist and fog overnight for a time. However, by the end of the week and into the weekend troughs make more progress across the UK bringing at least a short spell of rain and stronger winds for all before things dry up and settled down somewhat again over the second half of the weekend as High pressure is shown to build back North to some degree from the South.


GFS then shows a very mobile pattern next week and on until Christmas with the details irrelevant. With a train of Low pressure crossing quickly over or just to the North all areas can expect wind and rain and there will be quite a lot at times on Western upslopes. Winds will often be strong but always from a mild SW'ly direction continuing the no risk of wintry weather going for all areas.


UKMO today shows a return to this weeks synoptics early next week with High pressure refusing to move away from NW Europe with Low pressure out to the NW with a broad and very mild SW flow carrying rain at times to Northern and Western areas while the South and East maintain a lot of dry weather.


GEM today continues it's trend from yesterday with mild SW winds blowing strongly across all areas next week. Troughs and smal depressions in the flow will move rapidly NE over the North at times with some fast moving spells for all with the heaviest rain as usual towards the north and West with some drier interludes more likely towards the SE.


NAVGEM this morning holds the main thrust of Low pressure further to the NW and as a result High pressure remains close to the South and SE and although a few weak troughs deliver a little rain in the South at times the main share of Atlantic rain will be across the NW with mild conditions persisting everywhere.


ECM shows the weather becoming more deeply unsettled and often wet through the middle and end of next week with Low pressure troughs digging South across the UK delivering spells of rain and showers in blustery and mild SW winds. Things are shown to feel less mild later as winds switch more towards the West or even a little north of West at times when showery interludes could include a little wintriness over Northern hills.


The GFS Ensembles today show a few more dry days before things steadily turn more unsettled and often wet in the North and West but less so in the SE. This pattern is very indicative of a normal winter pattern of deep Low pressure to the NW and High to the SE with troughs crossing NE over all areas at times, most active towards the NW. Upper temperatures will fall off from current levels to nearer average ones later but at the surface some very mild days could be enjoyed in the SE Especially and to the lee of high ground in the NE. There looks absolutely no sign of anything remotely wintry from any ensemble member other than the odd one or two this morning.


The Jet Stream maintains it's trend to sink SE over the next few days to be running still in a NE direction across the Atlantic but this time over the UK allowing Atlantic lows and fronts to make deeper inroads into the UK. The trajectory though remains totally unbeneficial for getting any sort of cold anywhere near the UK due to persistent High pressure over SE Europe.


In Summary the trend towards more unsettled but still very mild weather is gathering some pace this morning. However, it looks unlikely that the SE will see too much in the way of rain but the North and West could become quite wet at times. Winds will also become more of a feature for all areas, blowing from the SW strongly at times with gales or severe gales in places and maintaining temperatures average or above for all. As we move inexorably towards Christmas, day by day the chances of anything Wintry over the UK on the big day look distinctly remote from today's trend and synopses endorsed further by the latest 10 day ECM Ensemble chart.


ECM 10 Day Mean Chart


Originally Posted by: GIBBY 

that's great news!


shine on you crazy diamond
192.104 m / 630.262 feet ASL
Quantum
Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:16:32 AM

Yesterdays suspiciously optimistic ECM has vanished as I suppose was to be expected. The odds are never in our favour. 


Twitter: @QuantumOverlord (general), @MedicaneWatch (medicane/TC stuff)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
nsrobins
Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:23:00 AM


Yesterdays suspiciously optimistic ECM has vanished as I suppose was to be expected. The odds are never in our favour. 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


Indeed, and what we need is the meteorological equivalent of The Quarter Quell so the odds may ever be in our favour for a change.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
nsrobins
Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:28:33 AM

According to Joe B on twitter, snow cover over the continental US is close to record highs for the time if year

Originally Posted by: Rob K 


[email protected] #freezeup
' Mean C Asia SSW in prog. Super deep snow for CONUS Bonus. Bone cold for Xmas Europe for sure #wolly mammoth. Skating on Dover Straits no dire straits Que Sera Sera hasta La Vista AGW #see if it doesnt'


Sorry mods, couldn't resist


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Rob K
Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:33:59 AM




For the latter one, if memory serves me correctly, one or two ensemble members on the GFS were, as we'd normally put it, 'outliers' well and truely, and at quite a close time scale. Then, all of a sudden, the whole lot flipped with them. I think a current/previous member had a screen shot of it as their profile picture sometime ago. Can't think who though


Originally Posted by: AJ* 


The outlier thing happened in both cases - the screenshot you're thinking of was from the older event rather than last year's one.


 


Originally Posted by: Retron 


I saved a copy of the screen extract used as a profile picture, and I'll try to work out how to post it.  In case I can't post it, the date was Mon 9 Feb 2009, the 18Z run.  The ensemble mean 850 temps weren't shown as dropping as far as -15, but at T+12 dropped to between -5 and -10 and then were shown staying there for a couple of weeks.  Then in the real world it didn't happen.


Angus


Edit: try this


 


 


Originally Posted by: Snow Hoper 


Running through the historical charts it's hard to see why the GFS was so confident of cold at that time. Somebody provided a link to archived GFS runs a while back - anyone got a link so we can see the whole of that GFS run and how it compared to the reality?


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Saint Snow
Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:41:28 AM

that's great news!


Originally Posted by: colin46 


 


What? That it'll rain and we'll have a sodden Christmas? Sounds fantastic...


 



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Maunder Minimum
Tuesday, December 10, 2013 12:00:34 PM



According to Joe B on twitter, snow cover over the continental US is close to record highs for the time if year, almost two thirds of the nation has snow cover. Not much hope of cold here when America is so cold.

Originally Posted by: turbotubbs 


Why?


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 

No idea, but in my yourh I recall being told that what America got, we got 2-3 weeks later. I suspect that is as much b**ll*cks as most weather lore, but there you go.


Snow cover can have significant effects on weather patterns, but I don't know enough to comment.


Are we clutching at straws now and waiting fo a zonal reset?


Originally Posted by: Rob K 


When the US shivers, the UK is usually under a blanket of ... rain. Sorry, but that is the long and the short of it, since as Rob states, the jet heads south over the US, exits the eastern seaboard invigorated by the contrast between the cold continental landmass and the warmer Atlantic and heads up over the UK, with zonal all the way.


 


New world order coming.
kmoorman
Tuesday, December 10, 2013 12:26:34 PM

@ Rob K

Here's the archived runs for the period.

http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?jour=1&mois=2&annee=2009&heure=6&archive=1&mode=0&ech=6&carte=0

...and the month as it happened .....

http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/archives/archives.php?day=1&month=2&hour=0&year=2009&map=0&mode=2

Originally Posted by: nouska 


A classic defeat snatched from the jaws of victory.  I remember the collective wrist slitting (metaphorical) that occurred then.


Home: Durrington, Worthing, West Sussex. (16 ASL)
Work: Canary Wharf, London
Follow me on Twitter @kmoorman1968
Jiries
Tuesday, December 10, 2013 12:55:20 PM

According to Joe B on twitter, snow cover over the continental US is close to record highs for the time if year, almost two thirds of the nation has snow cover. Not much hope of cold here when America is so cold.

Originally Posted by: Rob K 


http://www.natice.noaa.gov/pub/ims/ims_gif/DATA/cursnow_usa.gif


Snow cover as far as down to north of Death Valley.  Very good prospect if this continue to be more snowy and cold in January when I go there. 

Norseman
Tuesday, December 10, 2013 1:03:13 PM




According to Joe B on twitter, snow cover over the continental US is close to record highs for the time if year, almost two thirds of the nation has snow cover. Not much hope of cold here when America is so cold.

Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


Why?


Originally Posted by: turbotubbs 

No idea, but in my yourh I recall being told that what America got, we got 2-3 weeks later. I suspect that is as much b**ll*cks as most weather lore, but there you go.


Snow cover can have significant effects on weather patterns, but I don't know enough to comment.


Are we clutching at straws now and waiting fo a zonal reset?


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


Sorry for wandering off topic but wasn't 1978/9 an example of both the US and UK having cold Winters [extremely so in the US].


 


Meanwhile here benign and mild followed buy changeable and mild looks to be on the cards.


When the US shivers, the UK is usually under a blanket of ... rain. Sorry, but that is the long and the short of it, since as Rob states, the jet heads south over the US, exits the eastern seaboard invigorated by the contrast between the cold continental landmass and the warmer Atlantic and heads up over the UK, with zonal all the way.


 


Originally Posted by: Rob K 

Gooner
Tuesday, December 10, 2013 2:10:11 PM



Good morning. Here is the report on the midnight outputs of GFS, UKMO, GEM, NAVGEM and ECM for today Tuesday December 9th 2013.


All models show a mild Southerly flow over the UK between High pressure over Southeast Europe and Low pressure over the mid Atlantic. The mildest conditions are shown towards the NW where Southerly breezes will be at their strongest with a little rain at times. In the SE drier continental air may filter across over the next 24-48 hurs bringing slightly less mild air and a greater risk of mist and fog overnight for a time. However, by the end of the week and into the weekend troughs make more progress across the UK bringing at least a short spell of rain and stronger winds for all before things dry up and settled down somewhat again over the second half of the weekend as High pressure is shown to build back North to some degree from the South.


GFS then shows a very mobile pattern next week and on until Christmas with the details irrelevant. With a train of Low pressure crossing quickly over or just to the North all areas can expect wind and rain and there will be quite a lot at times on Western upslopes. Winds will often be strong but always from a mild SW'ly direction continuing the no risk of wintry weather going for all areas.


UKMO today shows a return to this weeks synoptics early next week with High pressure refusing to move away from NW Europe with Low pressure out to the NW with a broad and very mild SW flow carrying rain at times to Northern and Western areas while the South and East maintain a lot of dry weather.


GEM today continues it's trend from yesterday with mild SW winds blowing strongly across all areas next week. Troughs and smal depressions in the flow will move rapidly NE over the North at times with some fast moving spells for all with the heaviest rain as usual towards the north and West with some drier interludes more likely towards the SE.


NAVGEM this morning holds the main thrust of Low pressure further to the NW and as a result High pressure remains close to the South and SE and although a few weak troughs deliver a little rain in the South at times the main share of Atlantic rain will be across the NW with mild conditions persisting everywhere.


ECM shows the weather becoming more deeply unsettled and often wet through the middle and end of next week with Low pressure troughs digging South across the UK delivering spells of rain and showers in blustery and mild SW winds. Things are shown to feel less mild later as winds switch more towards the West or even a little north of West at times when showery interludes could include a little wintriness over Northern hills.


The GFS Ensembles today show a few more dry days before things steadily turn more unsettled and often wet in the North and West but less so in the SE. This pattern is very indicative of a normal winter pattern of deep Low pressure to the NW and High to the SE with troughs crossing NE over all areas at times, most active towards the NW. Upper temperatures will fall off from current levels to nearer average ones later but at the surface some very mild days could be enjoyed in the SE Especially and to the lee of high ground in the NE. There looks absolutely no sign of anything remotely wintry from any ensemble member other than the odd one or two this morning.


The Jet Stream maintains it's trend to sink SE over the next few days to be running still in a NE direction across the Atlantic but this time over the UK allowing Atlantic lows and fronts to make deeper inroads into the UK. The trajectory though remains totally unbeneficial for getting any sort of cold anywhere near the UK due to persistent High pressure over SE Europe.


In Summary the trend towards more unsettled but still very mild weather is gathering some pace this morning. However, it looks unlikely that the SE will see too much in the way of rain but the North and West could become quite wet at times. Winds will also become more of a feature for all areas, blowing from the SW strongly at times with gales or severe gales in places and maintaining temperatures average or above for all. As we move inexorably towards Christmas, day by day the chances of anything Wintry over the UK on the big day look distinctly remote from today's trend and synopses endorsed further by the latest 10 day ECM Ensemble chart.


ECM 10 Day Mean Chart


Originally Posted by: colin46 

that's great news!


Originally Posted by: GIBBY 


As you are in a great position for rain rain and rain, it must be fantastic


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Gooner
Tuesday, December 10, 2013 2:13:00 PM

http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gens/run/gensnh-19-1-360.png?6


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gens/run/gensnh-19-0-360.png?6


That would be ok for Xmas morning


 


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Gandalf The White
Tuesday, December 10, 2013 2:29:08 PM


According to Joe B on twitter, snow cover over the continental US is close to record highs for the time if year

Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


[email protected] #freezeup
' Mean C Asia SSW in prog. Super deep snow for CONUS Bonus. Bone cold for Xmas Europe for sure #wolly mammoth. Skating on Dover Straits no dire straits Que Sera Sera hasta La Vista AGW #see if it doesnt'


Sorry mods, couldn't resist


Originally Posted by: Rob K 



I've tried copying that into Google and running various translations against it but it still comes out as gibberish.


 




Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Gandalf The White
Tuesday, December 10, 2013 2:36:47 PM

In line with Retron's comments earlier, the ECM ensemble has adjusted sharply now


http://www.weathercast.co.uk/services/ensemble-forecast.html 


The mean beyond day 10 is now up to closer to average, maxima moving up to 8C minima 5-6C.  The precipition graph shows the same change, with much more precipitation appearing: only a couple of days ago the mean was showing 10mm cumulative and that has moved up to 25mm.


After 18th there's hardly any prospect of an air frost this side of Xmas.


The way the charts are looking I think we'll be at least a third of the way through winter before anything changes, i.e. nothing of interest for lowland Britain before New Year.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


NickR
  • NickR
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
Tuesday, December 10, 2013 2:58:24 PM



According to Joe B on twitter, snow cover over the continental US is close to record highs for the time if year

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


[email protected] #freezeup
' Mean C Asia SSW in prog. Super deep snow for CONUS Bonus. Bone cold for Xmas Europe for sure #wolly mammoth. Skating on Dover Straits no dire straits Que Sera Sera hasta La Vista AGW #see if it doesnt'


Sorry mods, couldn't resist


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 



I've tried copying that into Google and running various translations against it but it still comes out as gibberish.


 




Originally Posted by: Rob K 


I've found one:


'Cold and snow everywhere, as I always forecast, blah, blah, hopeless attempt at word play, blah, blah, ridiculous and misspelt hashtags, blah, blah, anything to get noticed, blah, blah, more of my anti-AGW agenda-driven borefest, blah, blah, I'm always right, just you see.'


Nick
Durham
[email protected]
Scandy 1050 MB
Tuesday, December 10, 2013 3:14:19 PM



According to Joe B on twitter, snow cover over the continental US is close to record highs for the time if year

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


[email protected] #freezeup
' Mean C Asia SSW in prog. Super deep snow for CONUS Bonus. Bone cold for Xmas Europe for sure #wolly mammoth. Skating on Dover Straits no dire straits Que Sera Sera hasta La Vista AGW #see if it doesnt'


Sorry mods, couldn't resist


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 



I've tried copying that into Google and running various translations against it but it still comes out as gibberish.


 




Originally Posted by: Rob K 


Skating on Dover Straits?!!  On what - water skis!  


Very very difficult to see anything wintry at this stage, not to say things might not change as we head into January but a real wasted winter month if you are a coldie. Rather like when June is cool and wet in the Summer - still, July did deliver if you like the warmth and the two months were very different. We can but hope the pattern is repeated which of course is unlikely- as I said yesterday, perhaps looking to February currently for any chance of lowland snowfall at the moment. Hope it changes soon.

turbotubbs
Tuesday, December 10, 2013 3:20:34 PM

Not sure if this is right place for this, but this winter reminds me of many when I was growing up in the mid to late 80's and early 90's. I never expected to see snow/cold weather until post christmas. Recent years have changed things a bit, and it is certainly looking like cold weather fans should probably find something else to do for a while. That said things change, and things can and do pop up at shorter notice than is realised by some. Just because charts are available for 10 days showing no cold doesn't mean that wil happen. It would be instructive for some to keep a picture of the 10 day chart and then compare when we reach that day...

ballamar
Tuesday, December 10, 2013 3:26:28 PM



According to Joe B on twitter, snow cover over the continental US is close to record highs for the time if year

Originally Posted by: Scandy 1050 MB 


[email protected]  #freezeup
' Mean C Asia SSW in prog. Super deep snow for CONUS Bonus.Bone cold for Xmas Europe for sure #wolly mammoth. Skating on Dover Straits no dire straits Que Sera Sera hasta La Vista AGW #see if it doesnt'
Sorry mods, couldn't resist UserPostedImage

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


UserPostedImageUserPostedImage
I've tried copying that into Google and running various translations against it but it still comes out as gibberish.

UserPostedImage
UserPostedImageUserPostedImage

Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


Skating on Dover Straits?!! On what - water skis! UserPostedImage
Very very difficult to see anything wintry at this stage, not to say things might not change as we head into January but a real wasted winter month if you are a coldie. Rather like when June is cool and wet in the Summer - still, July did deliver if you like the warmth and the two months were very different. We can but hope the pattern is repeated which of course is unlikely- as I said yesterday, perhaps looking to February currently for any chance of lowland snowfall at the moment. Hope it changes soon.

Originally Posted by: Rob K 



Another 21 day forecast!!

Rob K
Tuesday, December 10, 2013 3:44:44 PM


In line with Retron's comments earlier, the ECM ensemble has adjusted sharply now


http://www.weathercast.co.uk/services/ensemble-forecast.html 


The mean beyond day 10 is now up to closer to average, maxima moving up to 8C minima 5-6C.  The precipition graph shows the same change, with much more precipitation appearing: only a couple of days ago the mean was showing 10mm cumulative and that has moved up to 25mm.


After 18th there's hardly any prospect of an air frost this side of Xmas.


The way the charts are looking I think we'll be at least a third of the way through winter before anything changes, i.e. nothing of interest for lowland Britain before New Year.


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


On the other hand, the GFS ensembles have also shifted markedly, showing much more scatter and a downward trend. http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/MT8_London_ens.png


 


A couple of days ago they were flatlining 7-8 degrees above average right out to the end. Now they are back to around average from Dec 19/20. Nothing wintry on the horizon, true, but for people to say (as I read on this thread yesterday) that the weather is locked in until the "end of January" is frankly silly.


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
johnm1976
Tuesday, December 10, 2013 3:49:36 PM

Nobody's mentioning that the current model output is very different from what it was 3 or 4 short days ago when we had pretty much cross model agreement on "Scartletts", Straight forward Bartletts and a screaming southerly jet as far out as they went.


Now the models are hinting at something different.


Something zonal, maybe cold zonal.


That Stratosphere warming over NE Asia is still persisting run by run


Keep the faith, watch the strat, I've just got a feeling we're in for some interesting runs and some interesting weather. Maybe not a big freeze, but something other than double digit day time temps, fog and occasional sun.


 

roger63
Tuesday, December 10, 2013 4:16:27 PM


Nobody's mentioning that the current model output is very different from what it was 3 or 4 short days ago when we had pretty much cross model agreement on "Scartletts", Straight forward Bartletts and a screaming southerly jet as far out as they went.


Now the models are hinting at something different.


Something zonal, maybe cold zonal.


That Stratosphere warming over NE Asia is still persisting run by run


Keep the faith, watch the strat, I've just got a feeling we're in for some interesting runs and some interesting weather. Maybe not a big freeze, but something other than double digit day time temps, fog and occasional sun.


 


Originally Posted by: johnm1976 


As posted earlier, the 0h GFS ensembles ,show for Xmas day over the UK ,65% mild ,zonal circulation,35% cold anticyclonic circulation.The trend will be interesting but 2:1 against are not no hope odds!

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