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Scandy 1050 MB
31 December 2015 05:19:49

I'm not sure this is yet settled; GFS has the cold air very close at 150 hours and not much needed to waft it to us:


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?&ech=150&mode=1


 


Gem gets even closer:


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/geme_cartes.php?&ech=168&mode=1&carte=0


ECM will be interesting later, deep in FI GFS has dropped the easterly idea and has gone for a couple of northerlies instead which looking at the 850 temps aren't all that potent. Anyway FI is changing massively from run to run at the moment and the treatment of the cold pool over Europe in the next 150 hours is what is most of interest. FI not showing a return to the Nov/Dec pattern thankfully.


Strat wise 3 interesting events popped up in GFS this morning - all may not happen and JFF, but could be a response to Frank's WAA?


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?&ech=162&mode=10&carte=1


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?&ech=222&mode=10&carte=1


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?&ech=372&mode=10&carte=1


 


 


 


 


 

Retron
31 December 2015 05:30:37

How low can it go? Just a week or so on from the previous "super low" forecast in some of the GEFS members, we have a new record this morning!



Leysdown, north Kent
Whether Idle
31 December 2015 05:46:13

GFS paints another soggy picture in its accumulation forecast out to 240.  Not as bad as some runs Ive seen but still probably enough to trigger flooding in sensitive catchments.



Dover, 5m asl. Half a mile from the south coast.
Scandy 1050 MB
31 December 2015 05:54:23


How low can it go? Just a week or so on from the previous "super low" forecast in some of the GEFS members, we have a new record this morning!



Originally Posted by: Retron 


Let's hope that does not verify; horrendous for flood hit communities if that comes off and I wouldn't like to guess the highest gust speeds from that storm.

Retron
31 December 2015 06:16:03
Something else of interest from GEFS this morning - the majority of the runs go on to build a strong ridge once the next set of lows move through; the majority of runs do it to the west or over the UK, with a minority building it over mainland Europe instead (aka "the slug"). Purely academic at this range, especially given the uncertainties of the next few days, but maybe, just maybe, it's picking up on the next trend? We'll see over the next week or so, anyway.


Leysdown, north Kent
Brian Gaze
31 December 2015 07:00:01


 


I get so muddled by the models at the best of times, but isn't GFS the one with the tendency to overdo these dartboard lows?  edit - Thanks David! 


Originally Posted by: SJV 


That's the common perception and one I have long held. However, the MetO senior forecaster recently suggested GFS has a tendency to be less progressive because it's vertical resolution is lower than ECM and it models the strat more coarsely. Quite how that impacts the development of dartboard lows in its output is less obvious.


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
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"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Retron
31 December 2015 07:00:06

Looks like ECM's catching on to what GEFS is showing. I think we might be a bit closer to knowing what the mid-term outlook is if this keeps up!


There are two likely scenarios on the table.


Before that, though, let's review what's going to happen. We already have a large upper ridge to our east, which is going to move northeast. This dislodges part of the vortex, which then becomes trapped to the south of the upper ridge (due east of us). Underneath this is some bitterly cold air, however it looks unlikely to affect us directly (there's still a tiny chance, but that's all it is - tiny!)


Some of the upper heights remain to the north of us, then attempt to "leak" back westwards. The majority is going to head away to the east, but the remnants, the leak, whatever you want to call it, will impede the progress of the next chunk of vortex which is moving eastwards from Newfoundland. There are two likely scenarios that follow.


One: the upper heights aren't sufficient to stop the jet and the Newfoundland chunk of the vortex from setting up shop near Iceland. This would lead to the jet roaring north of the UK, encouraging (eventually) increased heights over mainland Europe and bringing a return of mild SW'lies for the UK. This was shown in last night's 12z ECM.


Two: the upper heights are strong enough to force the upper low and jet further south. This means wet and wild weather for us, but crucially it means the heights "slip over" the low and end up west of Greenland. This gives an opportunity to link up to any ridges coming out of Canada and thus form a block - it doesn't look like this morning's ECM is going to do it, but several of the GEFS ensemble members do it, as does this morning's GFS. (Look at 240 - the ridge is amplified by the remnants of heights that have moved westwards over Greenland).


This is what GEFS is picking up on today, as has GEM to an extent. ECM is also showing it, but what differs is the phasing of the remnant heights and the next ridge moving away from the Americas. If the two phase, we get a potent northerly. If not, we get an extended spell of wet and windy (but not especially mild, at least by day) weather. And if not enough of that upper ridge makes it west across Greenland then we go back to default SW'lies.


Who said model watching was boring, eh? (And look, no need to mention the MJO, the QBO, AAM and so on!)


EDIT: Here are some annotated charts from the ECM run. The red arrows show the movement of upper heights.


T+72 - most of the heights go east, but a ridge heads west.



T+120 - ridging extends across Greenland from the east. That weak upper high north of the UK has nowhere to go!



 T+192: the upper high gets ripped in two. Part heads east, the rest continues its journey over Greenland to emerge near Canada.



 


Leysdown, north Kent
Rob K
31 December 2015 08:05:16
The 00z GFS is showing some colder options again this morning. Still much uncertainty as Darren says.

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/MT8_London_ens.png 
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
JACKO4EVER
31 December 2015 08:16:47


Looks like ECM's catching on to what GEFS is showing. I think we might be a bit closer to knowing what the mid-term outlook is if this keeps up!


There are two likely scenarios on the table.


Before that, though, let's review what's going to happen. We already have a large upper ridge to our east, which is going to move northeast. This dislodges part of the vortex, which then becomes trapped to the south of the upper ridge (due east of us). Underneath this is some bitterly cold air, however it looks unlikely to affect us directly (there's still a tiny chance, but that's all it is - tiny!)


Some of the upper heights remain to the north of us, then attempt to "leak" back westwards. The majority is going to head away to the east, but the remnants, the leak, whatever you want to call it, will impede the progress of the next chunk of vortex which is moving eastwards from Newfoundland. There are two likely scenarios that follow.


One: the upper heights aren't sufficient to stop the jet and the Newfoundland chunk of the vortex from setting up shop near Iceland. This would lead to the jet roaring north of the UK, encouraging (eventually) increased heights over mainland Europe and bringing a return of mild SW'lies for the UK. This was shown in last night's 12z ECM.


Two: the upper heights are strong enough to force the upper low and jet further south. This means wet and wild weather for us, but crucially it means the heights "slip over" the low and end up west of Greenland. This gives an opportunity to link up to any ridges coming out of Canada and thus form a block - it doesn't look like this morning's ECM is going to do it, but several of the GEFS ensemble members do it, as does this morning's GFS. (Look at 240 - the ridge is amplified by the remnants of heights that have moved westwards over Greenland).


This is what GEFS is picking up on today, as has GEM to an extent. ECM is also showing it, but what differs is the phasing of the remnant heights and the next ridge moving away from the Americas. If the two phase, we get a potent northerly. If not, we get an extended spell of wet and windy (but not especially mild, at least by day) weather. And if not enough of that upper ridge makes it west across Greenland then we go back to default SW'lies.


Who said model watching was boring, eh? (And look, no need to mention the MJO, the QBO, AAM and so on!)


EDIT: Here are some annotated charts from the ECM run. The red arrows show the movement of upper heights.


T+72 - most of the heights go east, but a ridge heads west.



T+120 - ridging extends across Greenland from the east. That weak upper high north of the UK has nowhere to go!



 T+192: the upper high gets ripped in two. Part heads east, the rest continues its journey over Greenland to emerge near Canada.



 


Originally Posted by: Retron 


Really informative- to all of those wishing to learn something (like me) READ THIS!


Thanks for posting.

tinybill
31 December 2015 08:19:57
http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gefs_cartes.php?code=16&ech=6&carte=&mode=0 

just looking its not looking to good for the flooded areas plenty of rain coming with the uk name on it
nsrobins
31 December 2015 08:20:22

I won't quote the post Darren, but that was an excellent read and well-annotated 👌


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
JoeShmoe99
31 December 2015 08:35:51

Haven't posted much this winter so far but been lurking - Darren that's the best post I've read on any weather forum in a long time - great stuff - really informative and erudite 

Solar Cycles
31 December 2015 08:36:19
Well the uncertainty going forward remains with all three models offering up different scenarios but with the ECM and UKMO nearer to one another, as usual the GFS reverts to its default Atlantic will blow us away pattern. A pattern change is upon us and the uncertainty in the models reflects this, just exactly what this patten change involves is anyone's guess.
idj20
31 December 2015 08:41:54

After a quick skeg (© Sevendust) through the various outputs, I think it's fair to say that there is a general agreement for next week to be often very windy and wet across the bulk of the UK, especially in the second half of the week. Not something most of us want to hear but I think it is time to accept that is going to be the case.

It's now a case of hoping that the second week of January does turn out to be kinder to us, but I won't be holding my breath.  


Folkestone Harbour. 
Retron
31 December 2015 08:44:41

Fewer clusters at 120 on today's ECM ensembles - down to 3 now.


Click for full-size!



Leysdown, north Kent
doctormog
31 December 2015 08:50:37
On the subject of uncertainty, the proximity of the cold air to the E/NE of the U.K. is apparent on this morning's Aberdeen GFS ensemble charts:
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/MT8_Aberdeen_ens.png 

I think, close but just not close enough might sum it up. Apart from that, what Darren said - still all rather uncertain.
Rob K
31 December 2015 08:53:44

As well as a colder cluster emerging on the 00z GFS ensemble around the 5th/6th, take a look at the control run: it builds a mega Greenland block at the end.

http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gefs_cartes.php?code=0&ech=348&mode=0&carte=0

BTW just wanted to add to the thanks for a very informative post Darren.


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
doctormog
31 December 2015 09:19:15


GFS paints another soggy picture in its accumulation forecast out to 240.  Not as bad as some runs Ive seen but still probably enough to trigger flooding in sensitive catchments.



Originally Posted by: Whether Idle 



Given that parts of Aberdeenshire had its worst flooding for decades yesterday (not that you would know from the lack of coverage) but based on that image, unless it falls as snow, it is bad news for the people out of their homes and the main A93 trunk road which has had part of it washed away to be replaced by the River Dee.


200+mm of rain on the hills would not be good, but given the colder air perhaps the ski centres will do well...if you can get to them.


GIBBY
31 December 2015 09:22:15

May I take this early opportunity to wish all Two folks a Happy New Year for 2016 and thanks for reading my reports here throughout the year. I know they have been missing for some time but I have maintained them on my website and now the worst of my pre Christmas workload is now over I should have more time to get to my PC to post them here again soon. If not you can read them on the below link daily from 9am. Speak to you all soon.


http://www.norton-radstockweather.co.uk/Model-Analysis(2859336).htm


Martin G
Kilmersdon Radstock Bath Somerset



Look up my New Facebook Weather Page  for all the latest up to the minute weather stories as they happen
Saint Snow
31 December 2015 09:24:27


As well as a colder cluster emerging on the 00z GFS ensemble around the 5th/6th, take a look at the control run: it builds a mega Greenland block at the end.

http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gefs_cartes.php?code=0&ech=348&mode=0&carte=0


Originally Posted by: Rob K 


 


That'll do, pig!


 


And cheers, Darren - it's posts like that (from people like you, James & a few others), which explain complex scenarios in layman's terms that make this site so good.


 



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
David M Porter
31 December 2015 09:35:01

I know it is deep FI at the moment and therefore we shouldn't pay too much attention to it, but given the long wet spell and the resulting serious flooding we have all seen on the news over the past few days and earlier this month, I think we should be hoping that GFS might, just might be picking up a new trend for later in January. This morning's 00z runs and a few others in the past day or two have shown HP becoming more influential over the UK as we get nearer mid-January. I know that many here crave for snow, but we really need to get the place dried out first!


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
Saint Snow
31 December 2015 09:47:07


I know it is deep FI at the moment and therefore we shouldn't pay too much attention to it, but given the long wet spell and the resulting serious flooding we have all seen on the news over the past few days and earlier this month, I think we should be hoping that GFS might, just might be picking up a new trend for later in January. This morning's 00z runs and a few others in the past day or two have shown HP becoming more influential over the UK as we get nearer mid-January. I know that many here crave for snow, but we really need to get the place dried out first!


Originally Posted by: David M Porter 


 


Nah, snow, snow, snow


I do wonder how all those flooded areas would look if frozen....


 



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Gooner
31 December 2015 09:47:15

..albeit as a nod to GFS and with some EC-EPS support, the 00z UKMO-GM has been modified to re-insert the low latitude low running to S of UK. So raw model not representative of *current* UKMO forecast but confidence is of course low.


 


From IF on NW


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


David M Porter
31 December 2015 09:56:38


 


 


Nah, snow, snow, snow


I do wonder how all those flooded areas would look if frozen....


 


Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 


An Olympic-sized skating rink I would imagine!


I reckon that even if we could get a pattern change along similar lines to that which occured in the second week of Jan 2013, it would go a long way towards helping the flood-hit communities. From what I remember, there were also some flooding issues in parts of the country around Xmas 2012 which were no doubt compounded by the wet spell we had over that Xmas and New Year. Thankfully though the pattern changed not too far into January '13; with any luck something similar will happen this coming January.


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
Whether Idle
31 December 2015 10:01:24

Brugge/Antwerp/SW Holland  Ensembles ECM 0z 2m temps (c)


Highlights the scatter and uncertainty. Eg - by day 5 you can enjoy an overnight minima of between +7 and -7 c 


Op and Control have both oscillated between runs from a warm to cold solution.


An unusual amount of scatter as early as t72 rendering t72 the limits of the reliable and t96 is well into FI.


 



Dover, 5m asl. Half a mile from the south coast.

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