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Saint Snow
29 January 2019 09:21:54

Thursday is one of those situations that pits different regions against each other in terms of what we want to see, with more northerly areas wanting the front to get as far north as possible; southerners don't want it getting very far north as that would let mild air in over them.


At the moment the northern extent looks to be somewhere between about Birmingham and southern half of NW England. Not sure of the implications of each for those in the south.


I'd say though that a band across the Midlands will be the best place to be. 


 



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Gandalf The White
29 January 2019 09:25:16

So to my untrained eye looking at the rainfall radar (www.meteoradar.co.uk) I see a low pressure system tracking up the channel, a band of precipitation up the western side of the country (rain/snow/mix ?) and further precipitation, in presumably colder air, coming down from the northwest (and at a faster rate then the band moving east to west).

Is all the talk of this being a bust because the air coming down from the northwest is not cold enough so even if it undercuts it would not turn any rain to snow? Or are there other factors at play here?

Originally Posted by: wingman 


People were optimistically hoping for a significant snowfall. The problem is the uppers ahead are just slightly marginal and the wind is from the south ahead of the trough, drawing marginally less cold air  into southernmost parts.  The back edge is likely to bring snow but it’s what happens first and how quickly the rain/sleet changes.  As always in these situations height and precipitation intensity are likely to be key, plus simple random local variation.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Gandalf The White
29 January 2019 09:28:04


Thursday is one of those situations that pits different regions against each other in terms of what we want to see, with more northerly areas wanting the front to get as far north as possible; southerners don't want it getting very far north as that would let mild air in over them.


At the moment the northern extent looks to be somewhere between about Birmingham and southern half of NW England. Not sure of the implications of each for those in the south.


I'd say though that a band across the Midlands will be the best place to be. 


 


Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 


I’m expecting Thursday’s frontal trough to keep being shifted south and for it to end up being largely a non-event north of the M4.  Already signs of the trough being less active.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Russwirral
29 January 2019 10:30:55
slowly looking like this might be slipping away from us in the northwest. Despite being in the bullseye for over a week.

Todays Rainfall might turn to snow. Thursdays looks like more a snowfest for the south midlands
Saint Snow
29 January 2019 10:43:11

slowly looking like this might be slipping away from us in the northwest. Despite being in the bullseye for over a week.

Todays Rainfall might turn to snow. Thursdays looks like more a snowfest for the south midlands

Originally Posted by: Russwirral 


 


Wouldn't surprise me if we got no lying snow out of this. But I do have some hopes pinned on showery activity tonight. Some of those showers have the potential to be beefy and, if we can get a streamer set-up going, we could get a few cm's. Although I appreciate snow would be less likely over coastal fringes near you.



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Rob K
29 January 2019 10:50:17
ARPEGE 6Z hi-res run looking pretty snowy for the south on Thursday into Friday, with two bands of snow potentially. Having said that, today looked good for the south at one point and now it seems to be a non event.
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
wingman
29 January 2019 10:52:35


 


People were optimistically hoping for a significant snowfall. The problem is the uppers ahead are just slightly marginal and the wind is from the south ahead of the trough, drawing marginally less cold air  into southernmost parts.  The back edge is likely to bring snow but it’s what happens first and how quickly the rain/sleet changes.  As always in these situations height and precipitation intensity are likely to be key, plus simple random local variation.


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


 


Thanks Gandalf, makes sense and certainly a situation that means forecasters are on a hiding to nothing!

Maunder Minimum
29 January 2019 10:58:42

Raining here in Worcestershire as I expected.


Unless we get something later this week, January 2019 will go down as yet another complete fail.


Normally we expect UK Januaries to be notable winter failures - usually rubbish and the worst winter month for any cold and snow prospects. The problem this winter is that all those teleconnections and strat people, plus longer range outlook from the UKMO - all led us to expect some wintery Nirvana.


New world order coming.
Rob K
29 January 2019 11:01:54


The Met Office forecast for tonight is now totally at odds with the yellow warning. It now shows all precipitation has cleared through here well before 9pm which is the time at which the warning starts! (And never mind that the wintriest that it gets is an hour of sleet at 7pm.)

Not much “joined-up thinking” going on in Exeter at the moment.


Originally Posted by: Rob K 


Ah, somebody's paying attention!


 


Updated:


 


10:49 on Tue 29 Jan 2019 GMT


Reason for update

The start time of the warning has been brought forward to cater for some snowfall during peak travel times Tuesday evening and the expected amounts of snow have been reduced.


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Rob K
29 January 2019 11:11:59
Marco Petagna at the Met Office suggesting "10 to 20cm hills somewhere southern England or Wales" on Thursday?
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
soperman
29 January 2019 11:22:39

Today's system has failed to intensify so far but it may still do so as it engages with the colder air in the East.


Not expecting anywhere near as much as last Tuesday but always a chance.


Thursday through to Saturday looks far more interesting for these parts.

eddied
29 January 2019 11:23:30
Yes seems as if tonight's event is looking like an outside chance only now for the south... but Thursday may still be game on.
Location: Reigate, Surrey 105m ASL

Winter 22/23
Days snow falling: 4
Days snow on ground:8
Max snow depths: 6cm (December 19th ish)

Summer 2022 max 39C on July 19th
Summer 2021 max: 32C on July 18th
Summer 2020 max: 36C on July 31st
Rob K
29 January 2019 11:39:36

Warnings now out for Thursday covering most of England and Wales: https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/public/weather/warnings#?date=2019-01-31


Yellow warning
Snow & ice
between Thu 15:00 and Fri 12:00

Rain and snow is expected to move in from the southwest, moving across England and Wales through Thursday into Friday. This is likely to fall as heavy rain at first across the far southwest of England, but as it meets the cold air established over the rest of the country snow becomes more likely. There is a chance of 2-5cm of snow for some places, timings are currently uncertain. 10cm is possible in places, though there is uncertainty at this stage on where is most likely to see the greater snowfall accumulations. Overnight Thursday into early Friday ice may also become a hazard on any untreated surfaces as temperatures fall below freezing.


 


The jam rolls ever onwards into the brave new tomorrow. 


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
NMA
  • NMA
  • Advanced Member
29 January 2019 11:39:59

It's one of those days where the rainfall radar is being optimistic too.


According to the radar it should be raining over this part of Dorset but if it is, it must be evaporating before it reaches the surface because it's dry on the ground as I type this. 


 


 


 


Vale of the Great Dairies
South Dorset
Elevation 60m 197ft
speckledjim
29 January 2019 11:41:23
the snow that was forecast here only a few hours ago has now changed to a sleety/rain affair
Thorner, West Yorkshire


Journalism is organised gossip
RobN
  • RobN
  • Advanced Member
29 January 2019 11:43:31

Yes as anticipated this morning the MetO automated forecast for my location has downgraded my rain-to-snow event to a rain-to-sleet event.


 


Rob
In the flatlands of South Cambridgeshire 15m ASL.
Saint Snow
29 January 2019 11:45:46

Arpege doesn't fill me with hope for here, either for this afternoon or tonight. Icon a little better (although it's got that curious but frequently observed area of rain over the south-west of NW England (covering Merseyside, north Cheshire, western Greater Manchester, south Lancs) but snow to the north, south and east (and it's not an altitude thing, either)


Icon gives more hope, but last week it overplayed the PPN rates and snow chances, so I've got my doubts about it


Hirlam is much like Icon



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
fullybhoy
29 January 2019 11:51:28
Well it looked promising here earlier, was snowing for a couple of hours but stopped about 9ish, was hoping there would be snow showers on and off till this afternoon, but not likely now, think thats our lot up here for this week
Aldo
Glasgow 165m/asl
 
Quantum
  • Quantum
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
29 January 2019 11:59:47

Reckon this will turn mostly to snow as it moves SE. This applies especially to around 6pm onwards.


 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
eddied
29 January 2019 12:03:26


Reckon this will turn mostly to snow as it moves SE. This applies especially to around 6pm onwards.


 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


 


What's that based on? It seems likely to be close but no cigar to me... at least in the SE, but I'm probably looking at the wrong factors. I struggle to find the high res data sources for these sorts of things.


 


2m temps are about 6C in London, 4C outside


850 temps ahead of the band are about -4c with DPs at about 1C by 6pm


The band appears to be arriving slightly earlier than forecast.


Balancing that, the rear edge will probably be nicely undercut, and the precipitation rates seems good.


Location: Reigate, Surrey 105m ASL

Winter 22/23
Days snow falling: 4
Days snow on ground:8
Max snow depths: 6cm (December 19th ish)

Summer 2022 max 39C on July 19th
Summer 2021 max: 32C on July 18th
Summer 2020 max: 36C on July 31st
Quantum
  • Quantum
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
29 January 2019 12:03:49

Using the metoffice snowdar (see their twitter) its actually going roughly on intensity lines. So snow is falling to sea level but only when precip is intense. Its encouraging because the actual snowlevel must be really quite low already so it doesn't need to get much colder for all of it to turn to snow.


If I were to redo the snow risk map I'd increase the snow risk for parts of the SE.


 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Joe Bloggs
29 January 2019 12:04:32

Plenty of reports coming in of rain turning to snow across NW England within the past half an hour.


Nothing substantial at all, and could simply be related to the precipitation intensity, but "the turn" is taking place even in towns and low lying cities. 


Could bode fairly well to those further south and east.



Manchester City Centre, 31m ASL

Jonesy
29 January 2019 12:07:00


Using the metoffice snowdar (see their twitter) its actually going roughly on intensity lines. So snow is falling to sea level but only when precip is intense. Its encouraging because the actual snowlevel must be really quite low already so it doesn't need to get much colder for all of it to turn to snow.


If I were to redo the snow risk map I'd increase the snow risk for parts of the SE.


 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


Interesting you say that Q  and I hope your right because I just read the updated met warning and it reads as follows:-


 


Updated:


10:49 on Tue 29 Jan 2019 GMT


Reason for update

The start time of the warning has been brought forward to cater for some snowfall during peak travel times Tuesday evening and the expected amounts of snow have been reduced.


 


EDIT: Sorry didn't realise it had already been posted above.


Medway Towns (Kent)
The Weather will do what it wants, when it wants, no matter what data is thrown at it !
Saint Snow
29 January 2019 12:08:29


Arpege doesn't fill me with hope for here, either for this afternoon or tonight. Icon a little better (although it's got that curious but frequently observed area of rain over the south-west of NW England (covering Merseyside, north Cheshire, western Greater Manchester, south Lancs) but snow to the north, south and east (and it's not an altitude thing, either)


Icon gives more hope, but last week it overplayed the PPN rates and snow chances, so I've got my doubts about it


Hirlam is much like Icon


Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 


 


As for Thursday's PPN and the northern extent:


 


Arpege - Wrexham to Stoke to Nottingham to Grantham


GFS - Lancaster to York


Icon - initially Chester to Sheffield to Lincoln, but then pivots to spread snow to Manchester and Yorkshire


 


I need the GFS solution to be correct!!


 



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
eddied
29 January 2019 12:20:44


Using the metoffice snowdar (see their twitter) its actually going roughly on intensity lines. So snow is falling to sea level but only when precip is intense. Its encouraging because the actual snowlevel must be really quite low already so it doesn't need to get much colder for all of it to turn to snow.


If I were to redo the snow risk map I'd increase the snow risk for parts of the SE.


 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


 


Again I must be looking at the wrong place. I see a fairly accurate representation of the hills. Unsurprisingly looks like altitude is key in the west at least.


Location: Reigate, Surrey 105m ASL

Winter 22/23
Days snow falling: 4
Days snow on ground:8
Max snow depths: 6cm (December 19th ish)

Summer 2022 max 39C on July 19th
Summer 2021 max: 32C on July 18th
Summer 2020 max: 36C on July 31st

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