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Medlock Vale Weather
Sunday, December 8, 2013 10:25:20 PM

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn1921.png


When one of these sets up it can take an absolute age to shift, it doesn't look great for those of us looking for cold for at least the next fortnight, but it is only the start of Winter...loads of time left yet. Last Winter didn't properly get going until January.


 


Alan in Medlock Valley - Oldham's frost hollow. 103 metres above sea level.
What is a frost hollow? http://www.weatheronline.co.uk/reports/wxfacts/Frost-hollow.htm 
LA2B MeridFlowEuro09
Sunday, December 8, 2013 11:54:25 PM
I am looking at GFS 18z as well.

So much for the ever lasting to T168 hrs for High Pressure plus mild Southerly flow for Western Europe and the UK- Saturday 14th Dec.

A Side of the NW and N Atlantic Family of Low pressure PV, that includes Greenland- as I looked at 16th and 17th December- that very large area Complex.

Pressure a bit less Low over the UK but during that Week By those dates we may be seeing Changeable with Flirting Low Pressure, with Two Notable High Pressure Ridges taking place, Tuesday and then again after a Deeper Low cross us during 19th Thursday- as then it could turn colder with Fresh West to NW winds backing light to Anticyclonic on 19th to 21st December- GFS then shows Two more Merging Lows one moves across N Atlantic to Iceland with another one form in NW Atlantic joint up to it by 23-24 Dec. and it looks set to push out that Anticyclone from 2nd Weekend from the 1st one that is after Mon-Friday.

GFS FI I can relax the thoughts I just have to say to myself I will watch you for that part of December with better Confidence only once the latter 10 days of Weather Modelled is half way through in real time- So I do not really be that sure as I see Confidence only upto 144 hrs ahead only.

But it is certainly good to try and guess the forecast of the period near or just grater than 2 weeks for now.
Climate is warming up, Scotland and N Ireland and North England still often gets some Winter frost, ice and snow, November to March, but the SE and South UK including S Central England and Wales, together with the West and North through the year, they sometimes get more rain than London and S SE England, where some longer dry fine spells without much heavy rain is seen every year.

The North Atlantic Sea often gets some much Colder Wintry conditions from November to March Months, and Mild SW and South winds tend to be more frequent over the East and SE of North Atlantic Sea, as the Azores High tends to stay in charge. 

With this warmth and heat, the Central and South UK has become mostly free of snow and frost.
Gandalf The White
Monday, December 9, 2013 12:05:49 AM




Looking at the comments and observations from the seasoned experts in the model output columns and the generally very mild temperatures well into the forseeable future am I right in thinking that this could well last for a substantial part of our meterological winter?

Originally Posted by: Tom Oxon 


 


This sort of scenario:


 


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Recm1921.gif


 


Is popularly deemed "Bartlett", I shouldn't imagine we'll be about of this much before 2014 arrives.  Dust off the wellies though, it'll be wet.


-T/O


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


I guess we are allowed to say that word now? or not? 


Originally Posted by: Tom Oxon 


Why wouldn't you be allowed to say that?


Originally Posted by: cultman1 


Because Quantum was misusing the expression when the charts were showing a stationary Euro high and Matty threatened excommunication from his church if the debate continued....



As you say - and I mentioned earlier - the charts do show a Bartlett type scenario for a while.


 


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Retron
Monday, December 9, 2013 3:40:09 AM


As you say - and I mentioned earlier - the charts do show a Bartlett type scenario for a while.


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


No, they don't - at least if you use the usw definition of a Bartlett High (which, as Paul Bartlett posted there is the only definition there is):


http://weatherfaqs.org.uk/node/117


"Rain, gales and above average temperatures prevail"


Not much sign of two out of the three on the charts at the moment!


(And for those who want to see a proper Bartlett High by the above definition, here's one:


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/archive/ra/1989/Rrea00119890206.gif


Notice how the whole of the UK is under windy conditions, how the jet is more zonal than on the 192 ECM chart (which shows a SW/NE-running jet rather than a WSW/ENE-running one) and how heights are much higher over Scandinaviaon the ECM chart than in 1989.


Leysdown, north Kent
Gandalf The White
Monday, December 9, 2013 3:53:38 AM


As you say - and I mentioned earlier - the charts do show a Bartlett type scenario for a while.

Originally Posted by: Retron 


No, they don't - at least if you use the usw definition of a Bartlett High (which, as Paul Bartlett posted there is the only definition there is):
http://weatherfaqs.org.uk/node/117 
"Rain, gales and above average temperatures prevail"
Not much sign of two out of the three on the charts at the moment!

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 



At the risk of an intervention from Matty.... My understanding is that it is defined by the synoptic pattern rather than the weather it produces. A succession of high pressure cells moving west to East and sitting over mainland Europe before drifting away and being replaced by the next. The jet rides across the top bringing unsettled mild conditions to the north and drier very mild conditions to the south.

The 12z ECM run did show a Bartlett type pattern
Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Retron
Monday, December 9, 2013 4:10:54 AM

The 12z ECM run did show a Bartlett type pattern

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


It didn't - I've linked to the definition above! The 12z ECM was anything but wet and windy down here and those are two of the three criteria on the definition. The jet alignment was all wrong as well.


http://oi44.tinypic.com/2mpekyb.jpg


That's the 12z ECM ensembles for Reading for yesterday.


Is it mild? Well, a little - but only just above average by a degree or so.


Is it wet? No.


Is it windy? No. (5 m/s = 11mph)


Not a Bartlett. Simple!


 


 


Leysdown, north Kent
Snow Hoper
Monday, December 9, 2013 5:42:48 AM

pedantics asside, the weather's still going to be sh!t though


Going to war over religion is like killing each other to see who has the better imaginary friend.


Home : Thorndon, Suffolk.
amfrepo
Monday, December 9, 2013 7:03:55 AM
Hi Retron

A Bartlett high is surely a synoptic not what is IMBY. If one is established but you are in Spain, smack in the middle of the high, of course it does not fit the Bartlett criteria, Spain won't be getting rain, winds, etc, yet hundreds of miles north it will be Bartlett like weather for some. A Bartlett to me is a "slug like" HP fest that seems to linger for weeks. We have had a HP cell loitering around for about two weeks and the forecast is for probably another two weeks, that is Bartlett like as far as many can see. As the energy rides over the top that area will get your milder wetter conditions, Scotland is some cases are forecast for 14c later this week on the GFS. ECM has the pattern further south. The Gefs mean on the 0z sums up the Bartlett:


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gefs_cartes.php?code=21&ech=384&mode=0&carte=1 
nsrobins
Monday, December 9, 2013 7:29:44 AM


I was quite enjoying my Shredded Wheat until you posted that.
That PV is incredibly concentric and pole-centred - about as stable a westerly zonal pattern as you're likely to see.


Apart from a slow change to something more classically maritime across all parts, I can't see a break in this pattern until Christmas.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
JoeShmoe99
Monday, December 9, 2013 8:03:23 AM

Bartlett or not thats about the most depressing chart cold fans could want to see


 


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Recm1681.gif


 


Long way back to a cold spell from there


On the plus side ALIWBM 

GIBBY
Monday, December 9, 2013 8:23:53 AM

Good morning. A new week but will the weather be any different as we continue the run up to Christmas 2013. Here is my visualization of the output from GFS, UKMO, GEM, NAVGEM and ECM for today Monday December 9th 2013.


All models continue to show a period of benign weather for most areas of the UK away from the NW where it will be cloudy and windy but mild with rain at times through the coming week. Towards England and Wales the weather remains more settled and with a SW wind backing towards the SE for a day or two midweek it will become less mild for a time with a greater risk of mist, fog and a touch of overnight frost slow to clear for several days. However, by the end of the week and certainly through the weekend SW winds will bring milder air back across all areas and as winds increase generally the risk of some rain increases as weak fronts are shown to cross the UK by some output delivering occasional rain for some, even in the South.


GFS shows this well next weekend with one such band of rain crossing early in the weekend and another on Monday with the general trend to change the orientation of the wind flow to more of a West or NW directon as High pressure builds from the SW this time. Eventually this is shown to cover the UK with a marked drop in temperature and delivering much colder nights with widespread frost and fog problems but some crisp winter days with plenty of sunshine. The customary collapse of the High SE is shown right at the end of the run with milder SW winds slowly returning.


UKMO shows a weak front crossing East at the end of the week with a little rain for a time before the pattern resets somewhat though there would be more wind and troughs look like having a greater impact on many areas as we move towards next week in a mild SW flow.


GEM gradually shows things becoming much windier next week with the North in particular shown to experience gales and heavy rain at times as small depressions zip NE. Rain will reach the South too at times where it will stay mild but windy here too.


NAVGEM too recedes High pressure a little right at the end of the run but the pattern remains the same with High pressure to the SE and Low to the NW with a mild SW flow carrying troughs NE across the North and bringing these areas rain at times and there are hints that this may reach the South too with time.


ECM shows signals today of a much more mobile pattern eventually showing up later next week. Before we get there though there are many days of benign and quiet weather with mild SW winds just bringing the occasional weak trough East across the South next weekend while the NW sees more in the way of wind and rain throughout. Low pressure then looks like digging in closer to the WNW of the UK with troughs making inroads to more areas, but it should stay reasonably mild.


The GFS Ensembles are a little better this morning with the trend at least the right way for more average levels of temperatures, both aloft and at the surface to show up. It may come at a price of wind and rain at times but never much in the SE.


The Jet Stream continues to orientate itself NE across the Atlantic to the NW of Britain for some considerable time to come. The only change of note is likely to be a shift towards a more West to East orientation across the Atlantic and the UK at least for a time in Week 2 but there is no major signs of a major shift that would deliver anything cold to the UK as of today's output.


In Summary then there remains little to offer in the way of colder weather for the UK as a whole from this morning's output. With pressure high to the SE and the South later, West or SW winds are likely to predominate throughout. Through this week it looks like there may be a few days of chillier air across the South with fog and frost possibilities but these look like being swept away by the weekend by an increasing SW breeze and a little rain at the weekend. The trend thereafter appears to be a slow progression to more changeable weather with rain at times in a fresh to strong SW flow later next week.


Martin G
Kilmersdon Radstock Bath Somerset



Look up my New Facebook Weather Page  for all the latest up to the minute weather stories as they happen
JACKO4EVER
Monday, December 9, 2013 8:52:20 AM


Bartlett or not thats about the most depressing chart cold fans could want to see


 


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Recm1681.gif


 


Long way back to a cold spell from there


On the plus side ALIWBM 


Originally Posted by: JoeShmoe99 


Morning all.


What a great winter chart for mild weather fans. The output this morning is looking like this could lead to a very prolonged spell of milder weather for UK, though admittedly turning a little more unsettled next week. We have hardly had a frost here yet- and long may it continue!


With my heating turned off ATM, I am one very happy chappy!!


four
  • four
  • Advanced Member
Monday, December 9, 2013 9:01:31 AM

Yes a dry mild spell in winter is a pleasant change.
Usually if it is not bitter and snowy it is wet and windy.


nsrobins
Monday, December 9, 2013 9:06:17 AM



Bartlett or not thats about the most depressing chart cold fans could want to see


 


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Recm1681.gif


 


Long way back to a cold spell from there


On the plus side ALIWBM 


Originally Posted by: JACKO4EVER 


Morning all.


What a great winter chart for mild weather fans. The output this morning is looking like this could lead to a very prolonged spell of milder weather for UK, though admittedly turning a little more unsettled next week. We have hardly had a frost here yet- and long may it continue!


With my heating turned off ATM, I am one very happy chappy!!



Originally Posted by: JoeShmoe99 


You must be loving the conditions at the moment, Jason.
You are in the minority though, with most of us prefering at least a short period of 'proper' winter weather, although we may have to wait a while for it to arrive.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
Monday, December 9, 2013 9:07:21 AM

Thanks, Martin - though I fear you may have coined a new phrase - ALIWBB - at least it will be benign


War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

Chichester 12m asl
GIBBY
Monday, December 9, 2013 9:17:54 AM


Thanks, Martin - though I fear you may have coined a new phrase - ALIWBB - at least it will be benign


Originally Posted by: DEW 


Yes It's a phrase that I have used all to frequently lately and will probably again if this 'benign' weather phase continues.


Martin G
Kilmersdon Radstock Bath Somerset



Look up my New Facebook Weather Page  for all the latest up to the minute weather stories as they happen
Gooner
Monday, December 9, 2013 10:53:52 AM

http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2013120906/gfsnh-0-384.png?6


A Xmas day storm , maybe the Express have this one right


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


nsrobins
Monday, December 9, 2013 10:59:45 AM


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2013120906/gfsnh-0-384.png?6


A Xmas day storm , maybe the Express have this one right


Originally Posted by: Gooner 


Steady - high parts of W Scotland are in danger of getting a wintry shower around the 20th Dec>

The depressing thing is even CFS isn't offering anything going right out to 18th Jan


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
nouska
Monday, December 9, 2013 11:04:05 AM


pedantics asside, the weather's still going to be sh!t though


Originally Posted by: Snow Hoper 


Only on a weather forum.


In the real world - I've just had a delivery of a thousand litres of heating oil - I need resuscitation and I need this endless freezing fog to lift. NOW

The Beast from the East
Monday, December 9, 2013 11:21:33 AM


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2013120906/gfsnh-0-384.png?6


A Xmas day storm , maybe the Express have this one right


Originally Posted by: Gooner 


Some interesting ens runs starting to pop up with the pv on the move, so maybe something of interest for the last week of the month. It wont be blocked and cold but perhaps stormy and coldish


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Gavin P
Monday, December 9, 2013 11:35:58 AM

Hi all,


Here's today's video update:


High Pressure Breaking Down Next Week?


http://www.gavsweathervids.com


Could see the weather turning more active next week anyway.


Not seeing any sign of proper blocked/cold weather though.


Rural West Northants 120m asl
Short, medium and long range weather forecast videos @ https://www.youtube.com/user/GavsWeatherVids
Scandy 1050 MB
Monday, December 9, 2013 11:52:49 AM


Hi all,


Here's today's video update:


High Pressure Breaking Down Next Week?


http://www.gavsweathervids.com


Could see the weather turning more active next week anyway.


Not seeing any sign of proper blocked/cold weather though.


Originally Posted by: Gavin P 


Thanks Gavin, perhaps the bleakest outlook for coldies since the dark days of pre 2007 - no sign of any northern blocking and as someone said even CFS is bleak out to mid Jan!  Perhaps February could be the best bet for any snow chance at this rate, not writing winter off but without something major changing it's hard to see anything cold until late Jan at the earliest looking at model output today.

squish
Monday, December 9, 2013 12:00:29 PM
Run no.8 from the 06z GEFS is about all there is to go on today.....

D.E.W on Dartmoor. 300m asl
Whiteout
Monday, December 9, 2013 12:18:17 PM

Run no.8 from the 06z GEFS is about all there is to go on today.....

Originally Posted by: squish 


I don't know, looks to me like the GFS ens are trending colder:


http://www.meteociel.fr/cartes_obs/gens_display.php?ext=1&x=306&y=141&ville=Londres


Certainly colder than the 00z set:


http://www.meteociel.fr/cartes_obs/gens_display.php?x=306&y=141&ext=1&run=0&ville=Londres&runpara=0&type=0


With more colder runs


Home/Work - Dartmoor
240m/785 ft asl
roger63
Monday, December 9, 2013 12:23:44 PM



Hi all,


Here's today's video update:


High Pressure Breaking Down Next Week?


http://www.gavsweathervids.com


Could see the weather turning more active next week anyway.


Not seeing any sign of proper blocked/cold weather though.


Originally Posted by: Scandy 1050 MB 


Thanks Gavin, perhaps the bleakest outlook for coldies since the dark days of pre 2007 - no sign of any northern blocking and as someone said even CFS is bleak out to mid Jan!  Perhaps February could be the best bet for any snow chance at this rate, not writing winter off but without something major changing it's hard to see anything cold until late Jan at the earliest looking at model output today.


Originally Posted by: Gavin P 


THink you guys are being far too pessimistic.In the range of GFS the ensemble mean shows aout at 144h a more zonal flow than at present,then HP ,broadly in  SE Europe strengthening again.The mean hides a variety of HP positions with a handful being located over Baltic,Denmark and Scandinavia. There is therefore scope for HP to develop in a position that could bring colder air over the UK.Unfortunately at present by 384h (xmas day) the mean shows the HP shifting further west to south of UK letting back a more zonal flow.

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